How so?
How about these guys?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Việt_Nam_Quang_Phục_Hội
沒有國民黨就沒有中國, Without the Kuomintang there would be no China, A Republic of China Story
- Thread starter CELTICEMPIRE
- Start date
How so?
How about these guys?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Việt_Nam_Quang_Phục_Hội
Without Communist China, North Korea would not have launched the Korea War.
It would be too risky for Stalin to approve the invasion without securing the Northern's back yard, China.
In fact, the main conflict in far east for next 40 years would be China and Russia due to the Mongolia and Tuva issues.
Chiang himself was not corrupt. There were, however, quite a few corrupt officials within the Chinese government. Chiang cracked down on corruption after he fled to Taiwan. The KMT might have had some far-right elements, but Chiang Kai-shek started out as a leftist and even though he moved to the right as he got older the Chinese economy was a mix between capitalism and socialism. The Chinese Nationalists were anti-colonialists, and Chiang Kai-shek was not a big fan of the British. He only became pro-Western out of necessity because of the Cold War and the threat of the PRC.
It doesn't exist by the time this TL starts.
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You can't have an economy of both "capitalism" and "socialism", it's both private capitalism in the form of privately owned, entrepreneurial enterprises with proprietors and corporations with bureaucracy, CEO's, board of directors and shareholders, and state capitalism, to which the state does capitalist things, owns significant areas/parts of the economy (commanding heights for example, like telecoms, credit, coal, transport), and stabilizes the costs, rents and interest in the economy for capital's sake.
Everyone else who are workers have no say in this, including someone who works at a coal mine/sweatshop, to someone who has a high salary in a office building.
Socialism is when the workers do stuff... not the government. Yes, you can argue that OTL South Korea, India and Pakistan were countries of "socialist potential", but this is a grossly shallow oversimplification by just looking at the number of SOE's/what percentage of public ownership is in the economy.
One thing Chiang could do, is to do an agricultural policy inspired by Japan/ie. agricultural extension?
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四, International Relations
The 1940s saw great changes in the world of geopolitics. The losers of the Second World War had their empires dismantled, but even some of the victors saw their power and influence wane in the postwar years. The United Nations, founded in 1945, sought to prevent a similar conflict from taking place in the future. The Republic of China was one of the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, along with The United States, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, and France. They had all been allies during the war, but that didn’t mean they would get along well after the war ended. Relations between the US and USSR soured very quickly. In 1946 former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill gave a speech in the American town of Fulton, Missouri in which he spoke of an Iron Curtain that separated the free West from the unfree East. In 1947 US President Harry Truman announced the policy of containment of Communism.
China wasn’t on the best terms with the Soviet Union either. The two nations had signed a treaty in 1945, in which China recognized the independence of Outer Mongolia. In return, the Soviets agreed to cease their support of the Chinese Communists. The Soviets continued to support the Chinese Communists anyway. But this did not mean that China was necessarily friendly with the West. Britain and France had given up their extraterritorial rights already, but Chiang Kai-shek was still a committed anti-colonialist. He opposed France’s ongoing efforts to keep control of Indochina. No European country was willing to help the Nationalists in the Chinese Civil War. American Secretary of State George C. Marshall and US Ambassador to China John Leighton Stewart wanted the fighting to stop and were not admirers of Chiang Kai-shek. Chiang’s anti-Communist crusade did win him a significant amount of support in America, however, and in 1948 the US sent aid to the Nationalist government.
(Left: George C. Marshall, Right: John Leighton Stuart)
In 1947, India and Pakistan gained their independence from Britain, as did Burma in the following year. While China claimed territory belonging to all three countries, Chiang sought to maintain good relations. He already had a friend in Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, though the two would drift apart later. Throughout the 1940s, China developed relations with countries in the Middle East such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Saudia Arabia. There were many Muslims in China and many high-ranking Muslims in the Kuomintang, and they were helpful when it came to establishing friendships in the Muslim world. In contrast, there were not very many Chinese Jews. China abstained from voting on the 1947 partition plan that would establish a Jewish state. After Israeli nationhood was achieved, however, China established diplomatic relations with the new country. Sun Fo, President of the Legislative Yuan, was a strong supporter of Zionism and advocated for Chinese friendship with Israel. In future decades, Chinese foreign policy in the Middle East would become much more important, but for now it was an afterthought for Chiang Kai-shek and most of the Chinese government.
(Jawaharlal Nehru)
China now shared a border with the Soviet Union and three other Communist countries; East Turkestan, Mongolia, and North Korea. East Turkestan was a Soviet puppet that occupied the western part of China’s Xinjiang Province. China would never recognize its independence. China did give up its claims in Outer Mongolia, however. China had no claims to any of the land ruled by North Korea. The two countries would not establish official diplomatic relations. Relations between the two countries, which were not great to begin with, got even worse as North Korea became a haven for Communist guerillas to retreat into. China recognized the government of the Republic of Korea as the legitimate government of all Korea. China soon established an embassy in Seoul, and South Korea established an embassy in Nanking. China supported the Korea Independence Party, which was led by Kim Gu. The party was founded by Korean exiles in China and was pro-Chinese. Though Kim lost the 1948 Presidential Election in a landslide, China would continue to support him and his party.
(Kim Gu)
The Kuomintang would give support to other like-minded political parties and movements around the world. The KMT was itself active in British Hong Kong and Portuguese Macau. There was even a Vietnamese party modeled after the KMT, the Việt Nam Quốc Dân Đảng or VNQDD. In 1948, however, China was too busy to give them much support against the French or the Viet Minh. There was also the Tibet Improvement Party, which supported Nationalist China and opposed the government of the Dalai Lama. Chiang Kai-shek took an interest in American politics as well. He sent Chen Lifu of the influential Chen family, then Vice President of the Legislative Yuan, to the United States to campaign for Republican Thomas Dewey for President in 1948. While Harry Truman unexpectedly triumphed over Dewey and won reelection, the Kuomintang continued to work with Republicans. America had a dedicated China Lobby, made up of mostly Republicans but also some Democrats. No other major power had a significant China Lobby.
(Thomas Dewey)
China wasn’t on the best terms with the Soviet Union either. The two nations had signed a treaty in 1945, in which China recognized the independence of Outer Mongolia. In return, the Soviets agreed to cease their support of the Chinese Communists. The Soviets continued to support the Chinese Communists anyway. But this did not mean that China was necessarily friendly with the West. Britain and France had given up their extraterritorial rights already, but Chiang Kai-shek was still a committed anti-colonialist. He opposed France’s ongoing efforts to keep control of Indochina. No European country was willing to help the Nationalists in the Chinese Civil War. American Secretary of State George C. Marshall and US Ambassador to China John Leighton Stewart wanted the fighting to stop and were not admirers of Chiang Kai-shek. Chiang’s anti-Communist crusade did win him a significant amount of support in America, however, and in 1948 the US sent aid to the Nationalist government.
(Left: George C. Marshall, Right: John Leighton Stuart)
In 1947, India and Pakistan gained their independence from Britain, as did Burma in the following year. While China claimed territory belonging to all three countries, Chiang sought to maintain good relations. He already had a friend in Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, though the two would drift apart later. Throughout the 1940s, China developed relations with countries in the Middle East such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and Saudia Arabia. There were many Muslims in China and many high-ranking Muslims in the Kuomintang, and they were helpful when it came to establishing friendships in the Muslim world. In contrast, there were not very many Chinese Jews. China abstained from voting on the 1947 partition plan that would establish a Jewish state. After Israeli nationhood was achieved, however, China established diplomatic relations with the new country. Sun Fo, President of the Legislative Yuan, was a strong supporter of Zionism and advocated for Chinese friendship with Israel. In future decades, Chinese foreign policy in the Middle East would become much more important, but for now it was an afterthought for Chiang Kai-shek and most of the Chinese government.
(Jawaharlal Nehru)
China now shared a border with the Soviet Union and three other Communist countries; East Turkestan, Mongolia, and North Korea. East Turkestan was a Soviet puppet that occupied the western part of China’s Xinjiang Province. China would never recognize its independence. China did give up its claims in Outer Mongolia, however. China had no claims to any of the land ruled by North Korea. The two countries would not establish official diplomatic relations. Relations between the two countries, which were not great to begin with, got even worse as North Korea became a haven for Communist guerillas to retreat into. China recognized the government of the Republic of Korea as the legitimate government of all Korea. China soon established an embassy in Seoul, and South Korea established an embassy in Nanking. China supported the Korea Independence Party, which was led by Kim Gu. The party was founded by Korean exiles in China and was pro-Chinese. Though Kim lost the 1948 Presidential Election in a landslide, China would continue to support him and his party.
(Kim Gu)
The Kuomintang would give support to other like-minded political parties and movements around the world. The KMT was itself active in British Hong Kong and Portuguese Macau. There was even a Vietnamese party modeled after the KMT, the Việt Nam Quốc Dân Đảng or VNQDD. In 1948, however, China was too busy to give them much support against the French or the Viet Minh. There was also the Tibet Improvement Party, which supported Nationalist China and opposed the government of the Dalai Lama. Chiang Kai-shek took an interest in American politics as well. He sent Chen Lifu of the influential Chen family, then Vice President of the Legislative Yuan, to the United States to campaign for Republican Thomas Dewey for President in 1948. While Harry Truman unexpectedly triumphed over Dewey and won reelection, the Kuomintang continued to work with Republicans. America had a dedicated China Lobby, made up of mostly Republicans but also some Democrats. No other major power had a significant China Lobby.
(Thomas Dewey)
The first paragraph is a pretty accurate description of the Chinese economy at the time, as well as the early years in Taiwan OTL. Although I don't think they were necessarily doing it for capital's sake, more for the government's sake.
One interesting thing about the Legislative Yuan is that it in 1948 it had 18 representatives from labor unions.
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No, that is not a refutation or a counter. Chiang wasn't doing the nationalizations to hand over control of the nationalized enterprises to the workers, or allow democratic control within enterprises. Taiwan does this because high-capital enterprises/industries are things the private sector cannot do since they consider it risky or involves too much high capital costs and investments, which is fulfilled by the government, and making their services and products cheaper to anyone needing it, including private industry which is small but already has potential (and a good source of fiscal revenue). The state becomes the entrepreneur like what happened in Meiji Japan and OTL Korea. The word "socialism" is not something I would ascribe to mere state-owned enterprises, or municipal enterprises.
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Nice look at how Nationalist China is interacting with the rest of the world at this point. Looking forward to developments in the future.
Actually there was a surprising number of Jews in China at this time. Well, not all too surprising considering what they fled from. In any case there was a reasonable number (a few tens of thousands) of Jews in China at this time, mainly in Shanghai. There is also a native minority of Jewish people but they are pretty much extinct at this point. However, your point that compared to the Muslims there were not many Jews is certainly valid, and I just wanted to point this little tidbit of history out to any readers who may be interested 
Fair enough, my main point was that Chiang Kai-shek wasn't a hardcore free-market is always right kind of guy that people sometimes get the impression of based on how the Chinese Civil War is taught.
True. I was in Harbin a few years ago and I saw a star of David on top of a building. Since that's an unusual sight in China I decided to investigate. Turns out it's a synagogue that's no longer in use, it had been converted into a museum of Jewish culture. Almost the entire Jewish population of Harbin relocated to Israel.Actually there was a surprising number of Jews in China at this time. Well, not all too surprising considering what they fled from. In any case there was a reasonable number (a few tens of thousands) of Jews in China at this time, mainly in Shanghai. There is also a native minority of Jewish people but they are pretty much extinct at this point. However, your point that compared to the Muslims there were not many Jews is certainly valid, and I just wanted to point this little tidbit of history out to any readers who may be interested
Why has Kung Te-cheng, Duke of Yangsheng, been removed as President of the Examination Yuan?
And where is his relative Kung Hsiang-hsi?
And where is his relative Kung Hsiang-hsi?
Will we see a more Nationalist Vietnamese anti-Indochina War backed by the KMT to get the Europeans out from nearby Asian Nations and to gain more influence themselves?
Kung Te-chung was made president of the Examination Yuan in 1984.
Both him and H. H. Kung play a role in this TL, though it will be a few more chapters before either are mentioned.
Wait and see, it will be a few more chapters before I get into what's going on in French Indochina.
I missed this question. Agricultural policy will be dealt with at a later date.
五, Civil War Continues
From December 1948 to February 1949 Nationalist general Xue Yue eliminated most of the remaining Communist forces in Jiangsu Province. In February, Li Mi went on the offensive in Shandong Province. After a few days of fighting, the Communists began to retreat. Ten thousand Communists fled into Hebei where they were killed or captured by Nationalist troops stationed there. Meanwhile, Communists advanced from Henan into the Western part of Shandong Province. Communists also took over much of Chahar Province as there were not many Nationalist soldiers to oppose them there. Nie Rongzhen launched an offensive to take back lost land in Hebei. His forces were met by those of Fu Zuoyi south of Baoding in May. General Fu’s forces suffered high losses but they repelled the Communist attack.
(Xue Yue)
In June, Du Yuming attacked the Communists in Nenjiang. Though he gained ground, he was unable to take the provincial capital of Qiqihar. The forces under his command were increasingly overstretched, and he would cease all offensives for the rest of the year. Minister of Defense He Yingqin and Chief of Staff Gu Zhutong were able to convince Chiang Kai-shek to divert soldiers from the Northeast to more critical fronts. Thousands of soldiers were being transferred from other fronts in order to fight in Shanxi. Yan Xishan, his forces bolstered by reinforcements, attacked the Communists in Eastern Shanxi and Western Hebei. Thousands of Communists were killed and thousands were captured. Many fled into Henan, which was already home to many Communist soldiers. Throughout the rest of Summer and Autumn, Communists and Nationalists clashed in Shanxi, Shaanxi, Gansu, and Henan.
(Left: He Yingqin, Right: Gu Zhutong)
In July, China was hit with a natural disaster, Tropical Storm Irma. It was the worst recorded storm in the history of Shanghai. Over 1,600 people lost their lives and over 60,000 homes were destroyed. People from across China and even some foreigners came to help the people of Shanghai. Chiang Kai-shek also travelled to the damaged city. He spoke to the locals, hoping to endear himself to the people. While he was walking down a street in Shanghai, a young man shot at him with a pistol but missed, shattering a nearby window instead. The would-be assassin ran away but was chased down and captured by the Shanghai police. He confessed to attempting to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek and being a Communist. Surprisingly, he was not given the death sentence. He was instead given a long prison sentence in exchange for ratting out Communist agents.
On October 1, 1949, Chiang Kai-shek gave a speech to the Legislative Yuan, which was broadcast on radio for the whole country to hear. He assured the audience that China would be victorious over the “red bandits.” He denounced the Soviet Union. He praised the progress of decolonization, but he also warned that “As European Imperialism is fading away, a new Red Imperialism rises.” He spoke of two Asian countries already under this red imperialism; Mongolia and North Korea. He condemned the Soviet Union’s creation of a puppet state in Xinjiang, which he viewed as a violation of Chinese sovereignty. He also denounced Soviet interference in Iran. Chiang Kai-shek’s vision for China was for it to be a country free from both Western Imperialism and Soviet aggression. He believed that China must set the example of this third path for the rest of Asia to follow. This would be the basis of Chinese foreign policy for decades to come.
(Xue Yue)
In June, Du Yuming attacked the Communists in Nenjiang. Though he gained ground, he was unable to take the provincial capital of Qiqihar. The forces under his command were increasingly overstretched, and he would cease all offensives for the rest of the year. Minister of Defense He Yingqin and Chief of Staff Gu Zhutong were able to convince Chiang Kai-shek to divert soldiers from the Northeast to more critical fronts. Thousands of soldiers were being transferred from other fronts in order to fight in Shanxi. Yan Xishan, his forces bolstered by reinforcements, attacked the Communists in Eastern Shanxi and Western Hebei. Thousands of Communists were killed and thousands were captured. Many fled into Henan, which was already home to many Communist soldiers. Throughout the rest of Summer and Autumn, Communists and Nationalists clashed in Shanxi, Shaanxi, Gansu, and Henan.
(Left: He Yingqin, Right: Gu Zhutong)
In July, China was hit with a natural disaster, Tropical Storm Irma. It was the worst recorded storm in the history of Shanghai. Over 1,600 people lost their lives and over 60,000 homes were destroyed. People from across China and even some foreigners came to help the people of Shanghai. Chiang Kai-shek also travelled to the damaged city. He spoke to the locals, hoping to endear himself to the people. While he was walking down a street in Shanghai, a young man shot at him with a pistol but missed, shattering a nearby window instead. The would-be assassin ran away but was chased down and captured by the Shanghai police. He confessed to attempting to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek and being a Communist. Surprisingly, he was not given the death sentence. He was instead given a long prison sentence in exchange for ratting out Communist agents.
On October 1, 1949, Chiang Kai-shek gave a speech to the Legislative Yuan, which was broadcast on radio for the whole country to hear. He assured the audience that China would be victorious over the “red bandits.” He denounced the Soviet Union. He praised the progress of decolonization, but he also warned that “As European Imperialism is fading away, a new Red Imperialism rises.” He spoke of two Asian countries already under this red imperialism; Mongolia and North Korea. He condemned the Soviet Union’s creation of a puppet state in Xinjiang, which he viewed as a violation of Chinese sovereignty. He also denounced Soviet interference in Iran. Chiang Kai-shek’s vision for China was for it to be a country free from both Western Imperialism and Soviet aggression. He believed that China must set the example of this third path for the rest of Asia to follow. This would be the basis of Chinese foreign policy for decades to come.
Nice to see China establishing itself fully as a third faction. Admittedly that was the case in OTL, but most people tend to overlook that due to grouping them with the Soviets because of communism. At least here they're much more distinct from both sides.
True but here instead of just Maoism as a form of Communism, Chiangism could realy be the Thrid Path that Mao and Muammar Gaddafi or others hoped they would esteblish OTL.
What would be the hypothetical tenets of Chiangism? Would it be based on the three principles of the people and Sun Yat Sen's Three phases of the Fundamentals of National Reconstruction (Military unification, political tutelage, constitutionalization)?
Edit: Here's a really cursed idea for a ideology, Chiang Kai Shek Thought, just like how Mao had Mao Zedong Thought
Edit: Here's a really cursed idea for a ideology, Chiang Kai Shek Thought, just like how Mao had Mao Zedong Thought
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Chiangism would be based on the three principles of the people, with a special emphasis on nationalism. The Kuomintang had the same view as the Communists when it came to the status of Tibet and Taiwan. Unlike Maoism, there would be no encouragement of class conflict. Outside of China, Chiangism would appeal to those countries that recently won their independence and aren't fond of Western ideologies like Communism or American-style capitalism.