Charles of Burgundy dies on the way to Spain?

[BlueFlowwer]

So I had a idea that nagged me for a while. Philip of Burgundy and Joanna I of Castile had two sons, Charles b 1500 and Ferdinand b 1503.

If Charles's ship goes down on the way to Spain in 1517 in autumn does Ferdinand, a infante born and raised in Spain become king of Castile and Aragon? Does he marry Anne of Bohemia and Hungary as otl or perhaps Isabella of Portugal will be a better option? Who becomes Holy Roman Emperor as Maximilians I sucessor? Does Ferdinand try to become duke of Burgundy as well, or is he prudent enough to stay away from that? What would Francis I of France try to do?

Any ideas?

 

[Janprimus]

Ferdinand of Austria would not try, he would be archduke of Austria, titular duke of Burgundy etc. ,that is to say he would inherit the Austrian Hereditary Lands and the Burgundian Lands. Now Francis might want to make a move on Artois, Franche Comte, Charolais etc. I also think Ferdinand would not forgo the Habsburg claim on the position of Holy Roman Emperor. Now he will have to travel at least as much as OTL Charles V had to do. I can see a younger son, archduke-infante, eventually becoming his representative in the Empire, which will probably lead to his election as king of the Romans.
Now since Ferdinand lacks the emotional attachment OTL Charles V had to 'Burgundy', I think he might end up dividing it in Castille-Aragon & Austria-Burgundy.

Whether he marries Anna of Bohemia & Hungary, becomes a bit less sure, OTOH Maximilian might manage to secure that, before he passes too.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

I doubt he will ever get Hungarian throne-too many fronts to watch, John Zapolya should prevail ITTL, even Bohemia could be problematic.

 

[Janprimus]

I doubt he will ever get Hungarian throne-too many fronts to watch, John Zapolya should prevail ITTL, even Bohemia could be problematic.

Louis II might not even die ITTL. Besides even IOTL Ferdinand's was not totally unopposed. OTOH Ferdinand would be an even more powerful ally for Hungary than he was IOTL, given that now he would have direct control of all the vast Habsburg resources.

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Eleanor of Austria might inherit Castile and Aragon (and marry with John of Portugal as originally planned).

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Eleanor cant inherit Castile and Aragon while Ferdinand lives. The courtes will want a spanish king, not a austrian archduchess to reign over them. Ferdinand has no attatchment to Burgundy or the hapsburgs lands, would he not be content with Spain and Napels? I think Francis would do everything in his power to prevent Ferdinand from wanting Burgundy and Holy Roman Emperor. Even perhaps giving up some claims in Italy.

Holy Roman Emperor Frederick of Saxony anyone?

 

[Janprimus]

Ferdinand would simply inherit the Austrian Hereditary Lands and the Burgundian Inheritance. He may be more attached to the place he grew up, but he would not lose sight on the interests of his dynasty. So he would try to get elected as Holy Roman Emperor, he could even win it, but holding it together would be even harder than the OTL task of Charles V. If Ferdinand will have more than one son ITTL, then he will split the inheritance between them (at least the eldest two), however he won't give up any dynastic lands before that happens.

 

[kasumigenx]

Eleanor cant inherit Castile and Aragon while Ferdinand lives. The courtes will want a spanish king, not a austrian archduchess to reign over them. Ferdinand has no attatchment to Burgundy or the hapsburgs lands, would he not be content with Spain and Napels? I think Francis would do everything in his power to prevent Ferdinand from wanting Burgundy and Holy Roman Emperor. Even perhaps giving up some claims in Italy.

Holy Roman Emperor Frederick of Saxony anyone?

Eleanor of Castile can marry John III of Portugal and they become heirs of Juana la Loca not Ferdinand to prevent over extension.

Ferdinand would simply inherit the Austrian Hereditary Lands and the Burgundian Inheritance. He may be more attached to the place he grew up, but he would not lose sight on the interests of his dynasty. So he would try to get elected as Holy Roman Emperor, he could even win it, but holding it together would be even harder than the OTL task of Charles V. If Ferdinand will have more than one son ITTL, then he will split the inheritance between them (at least the eldest two), however he won't give up any dynastic lands before that happens.

True, but I think he might be forced to give up the Spanish inheritance to Portugal by having his sister Eleanor marry John III of Portugal.

 

[avernite]

True, but I think he might be forced to give up the Spanish inheritance to Portugal by having his sister Eleanor marry John III of Portugal.

The reverse seems much more likely concerning the HRE; Spain (through the new world) and Burgundy are rich, Austria is only fairly important. If anything goes, I'd think it'd be Austria - even if he'll obviously aim for the prestigious title of Emperor. Mind that he might lose a war and be forced to gve something up, but then Burgundy or Italy (which France aims for) seem more logical.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Okay, let's say that the ships that carried Charles to Spain sunk and Eleanor died too as she was traveling with him otl. Ferdinand is now the eldest of his family and with his brother's death the prince of Austrias and Girona. Cardinal-Regent Cisneros in Castile and Alonso of Aragon, bishop of Zaragoza and regent of Aragon calls their respective cortes to have Ferdinand sworn in as heir to the spanish thrones. Ferdinand requests his mother Joanna of Castile's permission to rule. Given that Cisernos dies in november as otl and Ferdinand is still 14 years old the regency of Castile goes to The duke of Alba until he comes of age.

Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor dies of grief from Charles death in december 1517 leaving a newly-crowned 14 year old as potential emperor. The spanish courtes refuse to let Ferdinand leave Spain, and since he is 15 or so Ferdinand does not have the ability to be one of the choices. However Frederick of Saxony becomes emperor and to protect Burgundy from France, Maximilans last act is to wed Margaret of Austria to him. Should they have a son to become duke of Burgundy?

In 1518 Ferdinand receives a proposal from Manuel I of Portugal; to wed his oldest daughter Infanta Isabel and in return Catherine of Austria will marry John, crown prince of Portugal. That distracts Ferdinand from his thoughts of traveling to Flanders, and the prospect of wedding Isabel is well recived by the populance and the courtes. Taking one thing at a time, Ferdinand agrees. He and Infanta Isabel marry in 1520, when they are both 17 years old.

Ferdinand VI of Castile and III of Aragon m Infanta Isabel of Portugal
Issue:

-Infanta Isabel b 1521 m Francis II of France b 1518
-John III of Spain b 1523 m Margaret of France b 1523
-Infante Ferdinand b 1525-6
-Infanta Joanna b 1529-30
-Infante Manuel b 1530 m ???
-Infanta Maria b 1533 m ???

John Frederick becomes king of romans and wed Anne of Hungary and Bohemia perhaps?

 

[Janprimus]

IMHO Austria-Burgundy (& maybe Milan?) probably is given to a younger Infante-Archduke, Ferdinand or Manuel, upon reaching adulthood. First as a viceroy, eventually he will inherit it from his father.
Margaret and Frederick would only have been an option, if Ferdinand would have had no son or at least not more than one son.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

So infante Manuel, duke of Burgundy and Austria then? And Margaret of Austria and Mary of Hungary can be regents for Manuel who will most likely be raised there?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Okay, let's say that the ships that carried Charles to Spain sunk and Eleanor died too as she was traveling with him otl. Ferdinand is now the eldest of his family and with his brother's death the prince of Austrias and Girona. Cardinal-Regent Cisneros in Castile and Alonso of Aragon, bishop of Zaragoza and regent of Aragon calls their respective cortes to have Ferdinand sworn in as heir to the spanish thrones. Ferdinand requests his mother Joanna of Castile's permission to rule. Given that Cisernos dies in november as otl and Ferdinand is still 14 years old the regency of Castile goes to The duke of Alba until he comes of age.

Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor dies of grief from Charles death in december 1517 leaving a newly-crowned 14 year old as potential emperor. The spanish courtes refuse to let Ferdinand leave Spain, and since he is 15 or so Ferdinand does not have the ability to be one of the choices. However Frederick of Saxony becomes emperor and to protect Burgundy from France, Maximilans last act is to wed Margaret of Austria to him. Should they have a son to become duke of Burgundy?

In 1518 Ferdinand receives a proposal from Manuel I of Portugal; to wed his oldest daughter Infanta Isabel and in return Catherine of Austria will marry John, crown prince of Portugal. That distracts Ferdinand from his thoughts of traveling to Flanders, and the prospect of wedding Isabel is well recived by the populance and the courtes. Taking one thing at a time, Ferdinand agrees. He and Infanta Isabel marry in 1520, when they are both 17 years old.

Ferdinand VI of Castile and III of Aragon m Infanta Isabel of Portugal
Issue:

-Infanta Isabel b 1521 m Francis II of France b 1518
-John III of Spain b 1523 m Margaret of France b 1523
-Infante Ferdinand b 1525-6
-Infanta Joanna b 1529-30
-Infante Manuel b 1530 m ???
-Infanta Maria b 1533 m ???

John Frederick becomes king of romans and wed Anne of Hungary and Bohemia perhaps?

If John Frederic get Bohemian throne he would have two electoral votes.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

That would make it easier then perhaps?

 

[Janprimus]

Alternatively Louis II of Hungary & Bohemia could survive, which leaves the Jagiellonians on those thrones. Having two electoral might also backfire, that is the other 5 prince-electors could also vote for someone else. However more importantly the throne of Bohemia will most likely go to whoever marries Anna of Hungary & Bohemia, the sister of Louis II.