How early can gunpowder be discovered by Europe?

Usually there are threads asking how late can the discovery of gunpowder be delayed, with the subtle hope of WWII happening with knights and swords :)p). Instead I'm asking at what time is the earliest that Europe could have gotten gunpowder either from discovering it themselves, getting it from the Chinese earlier, or the Chinese discovering it easier and passing it along to the Europeans.
 
The Chinese didn't invent it earlier than 800. It wasn't very good gunpowder, there was lots of trial and error to get it right and make it half useful.

Assuming passage through the silk road, I don't see it before say 1100.

As for inventing it, that could have happened at any time... Say from the Greeks, or even the Myceneans, Minoans, Egyptians, hell the Sumerians.
 
Gunpowder is interesting, because there isn't really specific knowledge or inventions that have to be created first, unlike say steel which requires good metalworking skills, etc. theoretically it could be invented in 500 BC, or earlier. It isn't likely by any means.

To speed up the likelyhood of development someone in Europe or the Middle East might go the way of China, trying to discover an elixer of immortality for an emperor or King, and get lucky.
 
Gunpowder is interesting, because there isn't really specific knowledge or inventions that have to be created first, unlike say steel which requires good metalworking skills, etc. theoretically it could be invented in 500 BC, or earlier. It isn't likely by any means.

To speed up the likelyhood of development someone in Europe or the Middle East might go the way of China, trying to discover an elixer of immortality for an emperor or King, and get lucky.

You're gonna need to flush Christianity (and ofr that matter Islam) down the toilet, because those promise eternal life in heaven. Then you're going to need a POD to keep Europe developing without the influence of Christianity.
 
You're gonna need to flush Christianity (and ofr that matter Islam) down the toilet, because those promise eternal life in heaven. Then you're going to need a POD to keep Europe developing without the influence of Christianity.

I was thinking some kind of alt-Persian or or even early Roman Empire starting up the idea, kind of make the Emperor an immortal God rather than deifying on death.
 
You're gonna need to flush Christianity (and ofr that matter Islam) down the toilet, because those promise eternal life in heaven. Then you're going to need a POD to keep Europe developing without the influence of Christianity.

Well, I need to say that you are very wrong.

Gunpowder could have been developed by an egyptian of the XX century BC trying to get better make up powder... Maybe someone in the X century trying to get gold from coal?
 
Well, I need to say that you are very wrong.

Gunpowder could have been developed by an egyptian of the XX century BC trying to get better make up powder... Maybe someone in the X century trying to get gold from coal?

I think he was referring to my suggestion of a ruler aiming for an immortality draught (as occurred in China IIRC).
 
You're gonna need to flush Christianity (and ofr that matter Islam) down the toilet, because those promise eternal life in heaven. Then you're going to need a POD to keep Europe developing without the influence of Christianity.

I don't think you need to go that far; Europe and the Islamic world already had an alchemical tradition, albeit one that didn't work towards the goal of immortality like the Chinese one. But I don't think the immortality part is necessary for an earlier invention of gunpowder--you might get an alchemist to make gunpowder while trying to make gold.
 
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While I agree with the above, alchemy was abut far more than immortality. Alchemists were the creators of alloys, cosmetics, dyes, medicines and more. Their belief that "the powder of projection" came from something usually discarded as worthless, even filthy, could have (but didn't IOTL) have led alchemists to discover potassium nitrate from bat dung deposits in caves, and through experimentation to have discovered gunpowder.

Romans with guns, there's an idea. Byzantines or Moors even more likely.
 
If gunpowder comes about say during the Roman Empire, which is certainly possible, you could have "grenades" made of pottery - easy to produce and certainly nasty as well as some sorts of rockets. Guns/cannon need to wait until metallurgy catches up. If you have gunpowder, sooner or later you're going to have experimentation to try and make projectile weapons, which will spur metallurgy.

Once you get a basic black powder formula, you'll have all sorts of fussing around with the "recipe" to make it better both in the formulation and making things like corned powder.
 
You're gonna need to flush Christianity (and ofr that matter Islam) down the toilet, because those promise eternal life in heaven. Then you're going to need a POD to keep Europe developing without the influence of Christianity.
My Caesar timeline is already headed towards the point of no nativity.
 

RalofTyr

Banned
If gunpowder comes about say during the Roman Empire, which is certainly possible, you could have "grenades" made of pottery - easy to produce and certainly nasty as well as some sorts of rockets. Guns/cannon need to wait until metallurgy catches up. If you have gunpowder, sooner or later you're going to have experimentation to try and make projectile weapons, which will spur metallurgy.

Once you get a basic black powder formula, you'll have all sorts of fussing around with the "recipe" to make it better both in the formulation and making things like corned powder.

There is an RPG game called, Flavius, in which Rome discovers gunpowder and they conquer the world.
 
Without proper metallurgy there won't be much to do with the gunpowder besides grenades and simple weapons of that sort.

Though it would.make sieges much easier; just blow down the walls and storm in. Were there a lot of sieges back then? Or is that more of a medieval development?
 
Without proper metallurgy there won't be much to do with the gunpowder besides grenades and simple weapons of that sort.

Metallurgy may well have caught up a lot quicker once the nature of the required alloys became clear. And Saxons made steel, perhaps they could have......oh no! (ducks while hundreds of English repel Normans PODS rain down upon him)
 
Without proper metallurgy there won't be much to do with the gunpowder besides grenades and simple weapons of that sort.

Land mines, shaped charges, arrow and crossbow mounted loads, catapult and trebuchet loads.

Also quite useful for mining, construction, and fishing.

And quite an incentive for better metallurgy and all sorts of things.
 
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Land mines, shaped charges, arrow and crossbow mounted loads, catapult and trebuchet loads.

I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for carrying all of those arrows around...


Also quite useful for mining, construction, and fishing.

It's these Mediterranean fish, they won't take the bait!
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Actually, the gun powder could be invented by some Greek philosopher of Alexandria, e. g. while reaserching new elements or chemical compounds. Even better, it could be a partisan of Leucippus or Democritus trying to prove their theories. By some unlikely fortune after a lot of resarch, he discovers the combination; naturally, it wouldn't explode just afte mixing it, and it would become a little footnote in a long chemestry book. But after some decades, maybe only one century, an ambitious and literated general staying in Egypt (let's say Vespasianus during the Civil war) decide to use it - firstly only as a medium to build exploding catapult missiles. After waiting again some time, one cunning centurio/praefectus castrorum invents a bigger bombard used to fight against the northern tribes, while a succeeding Roman emperor (maybe Traianus if his reign isn't butterflied away makes use of the cannons to conquer the Mesopotamian und Armenian cities. Even if the Parthians quickly adopt the new weapon and refine it, so that it can by hold by one cavalryman, the problems of the Germanic invasions could easily be avoided if the gun powder was invented in the first century BC.
 
Actually, gunpowder is one of those twitchy things that seems easy in hindsight, but very difficult to come up with practical uses for at the time.

Essentially, any culture which as significant access to sulfur, charcoal and nitrates can stumble across gunpowder. But there are some caveats there. Charcoal is universally available. But Sulfur is not, so you need a culture either located close by, or which has pre-existing trade networks available for moving quantities of sulfur. And you need a culture which has some understanding or appreciation of nitrates as a substance, or the refinement thereof.

So basically, you need the raw materials, and a culture which has access to and appreciation of these raw materials.

The next part of the equation is that you need a culture with an impetus to mixing raw materials in sustained ways.

The Chinese, as is famously understood, were not searching for gunpowder, they stumbled on it, trying to come up with an elixir for immortality. But look a little deeper. Chinese medicine had catalogued literally hundreds of substances from gravel to peat moss, mercury to lead, inanimate and organic, and ascribed medical qualities to each substance. They even ascribed medical curative properties to fossils. So that became a foundation for a quest to cure illness or enhance health by combining different substances.

The original recipes for gunpowder by the way included honey and mercury. And this raises another issue. For successful gunpowder, you need an optimimum ratio. It escapes me at the moment, but I can look it up if anyone needs it. Less optimimum, you may just get a lot of smoke and sizzle. From the discovery of gunpowder, it took the Chinese a few centuries to work their way to the optimum formula.

Finally, while it may seem intuitively obvious to us to weaponize it, that's not so clear for people who have never seen the stuff. It's hard to deal with, hard to get the ratio's right, and it tends to separate out into its constituents. It may produce a flash and a lot of smoke, but that doesn't necessarily win your battle.

The Chinese found their best and earliest use for gunpowder in fireworks, so we can assume some social evolution - you get a lot of 'bang' for ceremonies and showmanship.

Weaponizing it, for the Chinese, was a lot tougher. They experimented with things like fire lances. Didn't save them from the Mongols. It would be a few centuries before both gunpowder and gunpowder tactics were advanced enough to make a difference.

Basically, there's a lot of flukes involved, and perhaps a lot of blind alleys. It could be discovered at any time by anyone, assuming a reasonable degree of sophistication and access to resources. I'd say any reasonably competent bronze age society, or even a sophisticated Neolithic society might manage it. But its hardly a straight line to practical use.
 
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