No War 1914-1917, Changes to French Army?

As it says on the label. What doctrinal & other changes are likely for the French army in the short term of three years & what foundations for the longer term will develop?

At the top the question of replacement for Joffre jumps out, but there are other personalities in the Ministries that will be influential as well.

A second critical question is in the development of modern medium or heavy artillery. Where is that likely to turn? For a third, how much longer is the doctrine of the offense liable to dominate?
 

Riain

Banned
A second critical question is in the development of modern medium or heavy artillery. Where is that likely to turn? For a third, how much longer is the doctrine of the offense liable to dominate?

The Canon de 105 mle 1913 Schneider, as the name suggests is a 105mm gun introduced in 1913/14, it was available in very small numbers in 1914 but after 3 years I suspect it would be available in reasonable numbers, perhaps like the German and British divisions with their embedded field howitzers.

1200px-Canon-de-105-mle-1913-Schneider-2.jpg
 

Deleted member 1487

As it says on the label. What doctrinal & other changes are likely for the French army in the short term of three years & what foundations for the longer term will develop?

At the top the question of replacement for Joffre jumps out, but there are other personalities in the Ministries that will be influential as well.

A second critical question is in the development of modern medium or heavy artillery. Where is that likely to turn? For a third, how much longer is the doctrine of the offense liable to dominate?
I see no reason why the cult of the offensive would lapse. The 'Law of the Cadres' would mean that by 1917 the French Army would be longer serving than the Germans (3 year conscription) so better trained...assuming the French Left didn't get it overturned (they were politically gearing up to get the 1913 law repealed in 1914). I could see French uniforms changing by 1917, but AFAIK as of 1914 there wasn't significant pressure to make that happen yet. I don't see major changes to the French army happening beyond a better artillery park, but one still much worse than the Germans (the above 105mm howitzer was meant to be a corps/army level support gun rather than a division level one for the Germans). IOTL they only adopted modern 155mm howitzers after failed attacks in the Artois in 1915; they thought their existing 1904 155s were good enough until then and rejected 1913 designed modern versions until their infantry got slaughtered in trench warfare.

I could also see more MGs and perhaps LMGs being a thing for the French army by 1917. The Chauchat existed by 1914:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat
 
The Canon de 105 mle 1913 Schneider, as the name suggests is a 105mm gun introduced in 1913/14, it was available in very small numbers in 1914 but after 3 years I suspect it would be available in reasonable numbers, perhaps like the German and British divisions with their embedded field howitzers.

1200px-Canon-de-105-mle-1913-Schneider-2.jpg
Is it just me, or does anyone else get all happy and smiling looking at fine looking artillery?
 
Anyone know if there was any thought or action among the French airmen for anything beyond reconissance? Combat bombing had already been done in Lybia , Major Lewis was demonstrating his aircraft MG.
 

Deleted member 1487

Anyone know if there was any thought or action among the French airmen for anything beyond reconissance? Combat bombing had already been done in Lybia , Major Lewis was demonstrating his aircraft MG.
They French IIRC were the prime innovators in air technology pre-war and were the first to have a 'fighter'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Armée_de_l'Air_(1909–42)#First_World_War
The Germans apparently feared French bombing of the Ruhr in 1914, so the concept was on people's minds. I could easily see bombers being ready by 1917.
 
I see no reason why the cult of the offensive would lapse. The 'Law of the Cadres' would mean that by 1917 the French Army would be longer serving than the Germans (3 year conscription) so better trained...assuming the French Left didn't get it overturned (they were politically gearing up to get the 1913 law repealed in 1914). I could see French uniforms changing by 1917, but AFAIK as of 1914 there wasn't significant pressure to make that happen yet. I don't see major changes to the French army happening beyond a better artillery park, but one still much worse than the Germans (the above 105mm howitzer was meant to be a corps/army level support gun rather than a division level one for the Germans). IOTL they only adopted modern 155mm howitzers after failed attacks in the Artois in 1915; they thought their existing 1904 155s were good enough until then and rejected 1913 designed modern versions until their infantry got slaughtered in trench warfare.

I could also see more MGs and perhaps LMGs being a thing for the French army by 1917. The Chauchat existed by 1914:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauchat
By July 1914, the Blue Horizon uniform had been officially accepted by the Parliament and like OTL, would have begun to equip French units in early-mid 1915 (though likely not a the frantic pace of OTL).

The Chauchat was indeed already a very advanced prototype (and far more refined than OTL but still cheaper than any other design like Madsen or Lewis LMGs), it would have probably been adopted as a more reliable and less rushed weapon than OTL but again, likely not mass produced as OTL (but still more produced than a Lewis or a Benet-Mercier).

105mm and 155mm Hotwitzers would be introduced at a corps level like you said and would likely replace the 48 75 mm guns serving as Corps artillery. Those heavy guns would probably be intended for counter-battery fire. Joffre and Dubail had supported this since 1911 and it was intended to be become a reality in 1914.

Likely no helmets since it was the massive casualties of the first weeks (and the reports of field hospitals following the fights) which accelerated the adoption of helmets.

The Saint-Etienne would be gradually replaced by the Hotchkiss (already an idea accepted by the French Army and already used by the French Legion and some colonial units), easier to produce.

The Meunier rifle could become a limited reality since it was intended to be a sharpshooter rifle at the beginning (ten per company) before being more widely issued (to what extant I do not know): it was the first real and reliable semi-auto rifle with an excellent cartridge (very similar to the 7,92mm Mauser so I guess it means something).

The Navy would really begin to have more modern ships, including 10 excellent light cruisers (Gravière class) and modern destroyers comparable to the British and German ones and very capable submarines. Dreadnought would be modern but hampered by the limited elevation of their main guns (notably for the Courbet and Bretagne class, the issue would be fixed for the Normandie class).

1917 would also mean better Russian and more prepared Belgian Armies btw. To the point Germany would perhaps abandon the schlieffen plan and concentrate its initial blows against Russia. About improvement of the German Army I do not know but I imagine there would be. One thing though: the German Army wasn't very enthusiast about LMGs initially in WW1 to the point they massively used captured Lewis guns (up to 10 000 according to CRArsenal) and their lightened Maxim gun wasn't really great for this purpose.
On a side note, A-H would probably have its mauser-action service rifle adopted.
 

Deleted member 1487

1917 would also mean better Russian and more prepared Belgian Armies btw. To the point Germany would perhaps abandon the schlieffen plan and concentrate its initial blows against Russia. About improvement of the German Army I do not know but I imagine there would be. One thing though: the German Army wasn't very enthusiast about LMGs initially in WW1 to the point they massively used captured Lewis guns (up to 10 000 according to CRArsenal) and their lightened Maxim gun wasn't really great for this purpose.
Germany would have abandoned the Schlieffen Plan by 1916, which would mean they wouldn't be starting a war in 1917; that means the Russians would probably be the people starting the war, which would leave France in a bad spot politically, Britain out of the war and Belgium perhaps defending it's territory from the French.
The Germans actually developed a GPMG by 1916, but didn't put it into production for fear of disrupting production; their OTL wartime behavior in regards to MGs was driven by production concerns, not their doctrinal/technological developments. They'd have had LMGs and regular MGs in much greater quantities, a much larger air force, and much more motorization. Probably more artillery and corps too.

The A-Hs, assuming they didn't get into a budget war again with the Hungarian parliament, would have modernized their artillery and had more guns per corps than any army in the world. That was their plan by 1916 and had gotten the money allocated for it. I got an awesome book on A-H artillery from the Austrian War Museum was I was studying abroad in Vienna that talked about what their pre-war planning was and they'd have been formidable by 1917 (again barring budget issues) despite having a relatively small military compared to say the Russians.
 
... 105mm and 155mm Hotwitzers would be introduced at a corps level like you said and would likely replace the 48 75 mm guns serving as Corps artillery. Those heavy guns would probably be intended for counter-battery fire. Joffre and Dubail had supported this since 1911 and it was intended to be become a reality in 1914.

Need to check, but I recall the intent was to use long range guns as corps artillery, rather than howitzers. As a artillery guy the distinction is important & would have significant effects on the battlefield
 
Germany would have abandoned the Schlieffen Plan by 1916, which would mean they wouldn't be starting a war in 1917; that means the Russians would probably be the people starting the war, which would leave France in a bad spot politically, Britain out of the war and Belgium perhaps defending it's territory from the French.
The Germans actually developed a GPMG by 1916, but didn't put it into production for fear of disrupting production; their OTL wartime behavior in regards to MGs was driven by production concerns, not their doctrinal/technological developments. They'd have had LMGs and regular MGs in much greater quantities, a much larger air force, and much more motorization. Probably more artillery and corps too.

The A-Hs, assuming they didn't get into a budget war again with the Hungarian parliament, would have modernized their artillery and had more guns per corps than any army in the world. That was their plan by 1916 and had gotten the money allocated for it. I got an awesome book on A-H artillery from the Austrian War Museum was I was studying abroad in Vienna that talked about what their pre-war planning was and they'd have been formidable by 1917 (again barring budget issues) despite having a relatively small military compared to say the Russians.
Indeed, more years means limited modernization for everyone but again, modernization in peacetime is always more gradual and cautious than during actual wartime. For example, I don't think that Germany would be able (or feel the need) to produce 3000 MGs a month like OTL in 1916 (but I guess it will like this for everyone).
A-H entering war in 1917 would be interesting, I agree: replacing bronze guns for steel ones would an already very good start but there would still be setbacks. For example, the Steyr 1912, an excellent handgun wasn't an official service handgun in 1914 and it took two years of fighting to prove the immense superiority of this gun over the others service revolvers and handgun. So you would still have the reliable but rather mild 1898 Gasser and the funny roth-krnka.
And about Belgium, let's be clear, France would never go through Belgium unless Belgium accepts or Britain says "Go for it, we're still allies". In 1912, Belgian Warplans definitively abandoned the idea of a French invasion and focused on potential German ones. If the Belgian staff thought this, I guess this is quite telling. Of course that would mean banging his head in Moselle and Upper Alsace with predictible results, unless Plan XVII is once again modified.
 
By 1917 most armies were trying to use radio equipped aircraft to direct artillery fire. I'm wondering if anyone within France was thinking about this circa 1913-14?
 
Need to check, but I recall the intent was to use long range guns as corps artillery, rather than howitzers. As a artillery guy the distinction is important & would have significant effects on the battlefield
Howitzers compensate their limited range with the ability of "firing from above" which, in the case of slopes and reverse slopes, during a battle, is quite useful to neutralize enemy guns (the Germans did it with good results on the Western Front in 1914). And I don't think the French staff, still really focused on Infantry Divisions with mobile artillery in 1914, would accept to attach 155mm guns groups to these units. But again, 24 Hotwitzers for each Corps still means that these guns can be used to support such or such units in case of need, in which case you can use heavy artillery with greater flexibility.
 

Deleted member 1487

By 1917 most armies were trying to use radio equipped aircraft to direct artillery fire. I'm wondering if anyone within France was thinking about this circa 1913-14?
The link about the French air force that I posted mentioned having special artillery spotting aircraft pre-war.

Howitzers compensate their limited range with the ability of "firing from above" which, in the case of slopes and reverse slopes, during a battle, is quite useful to neutralize enemy guns (the Germans did it with good results on the Western Front in 1914). And I don't think the French staff, still really focused on Infantry Divisions with mobile artillery in 1914, would accept to attach 155mm guns groups to these units. But again, 24 Hotwitzers for each Corps still means that these guns can be used to support such or such units in case of need, in which case you can use heavy artillery with greater flexibility.
I've only read that the French intended to use howitzers for army artillery rather than corps except in special circumstances.
 
The link about the French air force that I posted mentioned having special artillery spotting aircraft pre-war.


I've only read that the French intended to use howitzers for army artillery rather than corps except in special circumstances.
Indeed, but partly because of the limited number of heavy guns available (including a near majority of old De Bange guns). In 1914 and with Heavy guns production for the last three years, I think the French staff would cautiously accept the idea of introducing heavy guns at a Corps level.
 

Deleted member 1487

Indeed, but partly because of the limited number of heavy guns available (including a near majority of old De Bange guns). In 1914 and with Heavy guns production for the last three years, I think the French staff would cautiously accept the idea of introducing heavy guns at a Corps level.
There were no plans to do so yet though, correct?
 
There were no plans to do so yet though, correct?
Indeed, I admit that I'm doing a bit of "prospective reasoning" from what we know of 1914. We cannot be sure of everything but it would be likely for Joffre (a supported of heavy artillery btw) or his successor to augment the French Army firepower. Btw, it would be interesting to see the results of the retirement of several "Offensive to the Utmost" generals within the War Council between 1915 and 1917: Paul Pau would have definitively retired in 1915 and Gallieni died in 1916 so...
 
Germany would have abandoned the Schlieffen Plan by 1916, which would mean they wouldn't be starting a war in 1917; that means the Russians would probably be the people starting the war, which would leave France in a bad spot politically, Britain out of the war and Belgium perhaps defending it's territory from the French.
The Germans actually developed a GPMG by 1916, but didn't put it into production for fear of disrupting production; their OTL wartime behavior in regards to MGs was driven by production concerns, not their doctrinal/technological developments. They'd have had LMGs and regular MGs in much greater quantities, a much larger air force, and much more motorization. Probably more artillery and corps too.

The A-Hs, assuming they didn't get into a budget war again with the Hungarian parliament, would have modernized their artillery and had more guns per corps than any army in the world. That was their plan by 1916 and had gotten the money allocated for it. I got an awesome book on A-H artillery from the Austrian War Museum was I was studying abroad in Vienna that talked about what their pre-war planning was and they'd have been formidable by 1917 (again barring budget issues) despite having a relatively small military compared to say the Russians.

Wiking I would like to get that book can you tell me Author and title...
 
Jesus I'm glad I'd swallowed that pain killer before reading that. The laughing fit was enough to start the spasms anyways... Which reminds me, I need to dust off some of the "stuff" that came home with me. Label it, so the grandkids will know what it was.
 
Top