The Pale and the Purple Rose
- Thread starter Kellan Sullivan
- Start date
sorry to disappoint. But there is no horse manure involved, the cows will not be stampeding- I have bad childhood memories of that scene in Lion King- and nobody is going to be dropped out of a high window- unless it's maybe in Prague. The Czechs seem to have made a tradition of that. Perhaps it happens to Charles de Guienne?
I'm sure we can arrange a garbage cart under the window
can you imagine the propaganda value of that. Seemingly saved by divine interventionOr is caught by angels
To Ride A-Cock-Horse to Banbury Cross [1]
November 1471
Soundtrack: John Dunstaple - Gaude Virgo Katherina [2]
*Cropredy Bridge* *the earl of Warwick and the 2e Baron Saye and Sele [3] is leading the Lancastrian army in a clash with the Yorkists, led by the earl of Essex's heir and Edward IV's brother-in-law, Viscount Bourchier [4] and his brother, Lord Cromwell [5]*
*cut to Woodstock Palace* *Edward of Westminster is walking outside with his father* *clearly gently leading him through the gardens*
Henry VI: autumn is late this year.
Edward: and the winter will come quicker and harsher yet for it...still...at least Milord Warwick has won at Banbury
Henry VI: *looks panicked* *grips Edward's arm tighter* *he looks like he's about to cry* he has beaten our forces?
Edward: *patiently* no father...the earl of Warwick is on our side. He has beaten the earl of March's army.
Henry VI: he's on our side?
Edward: yes, father. He was the one to release you from your imprisonment in the Tower.
Henry VI: why?
Edward: because the man is like a metaphor: Yorkist one minute, against them the next, and only God in his infinite wisdom knows what is going on in that devious little head
Henry VI: blasphemy! My son will soon see to you for such talk!
Edward: *clearly pained at this lack of recognition from his father* of course, your Majesty. How is he? The prince of Wales?
Henry VI: he is in France with his mother.
Edward: I had heard he's come back. They have both returned.
Henry VI: *shakes head* then why hasn't he come to see me?
Edward: *gently* perhaps he is nearer than you think, Majesty *we see John Wenlock approach* what is it, John?
Wenlock: your Highness, an answer has come from Brittany regarding the duke's marriage.
Edward: *kisses Henry's cheeks* dear God, hang restoration on my lips and let this kiss repair such violent harms...to cure the jarred senses of this child-changed father [5]. *leaves a confused-looking Henry in the care of a page*
*cut to interior* *Marguerite d'Anjou and Edward are both sitting in front of the fireplace*
Marguerite: Edward, be reasonable.
Edward: I am being reasonable, mother. We are isolated. The duke of Brittany is asking for a match with us-
Marguerite: he is asking for a match with the Yorks.
Edward: it is the same thing, Mother.
Marguerite: you would have him father a child by a York girl. A child who can threaten your throne?
Edward: *half smirks* Milady Exeter is nearly the same age as our Lord was when he was crucified [6]. And the duke of Burgundy's mother was even older when she became a bride, yet she was still able to have a child.
Marguerite: *opens mouth to speak*
Edward: especially since Milady Exeter is due to be a grandmother in short order. Isabel has written to Anne with the news that Lady Huntingdon [7]
Marguerite: and what makes you think that the duke of Brittany will accept her?
Edward: he would not be requesting a match with England otherwise. After all, the earl of March's eldest daughter is too young and there are no other daughters save Nanette [8]
Marguerite: the dowager duchess of Burgundy has written suggesting a match between her grandson and your daughter.
Edward: until I have a son, the only match I will consider for Nanette is with the King of Scots' newborn son. And so...we come back to Milady Exeter as duchess of Brittany.
Marguerite: what inclines you to believe she will accept it?
Edward: *smirks again* simple...both her brother and myself are in agreement that she will marry the duke. I see no reason to stand in the way of such a match.
*cut to chapel at Winchester Palace* *title card says "one month later"* *Cardinal Neville, Archbishop of York, assisted by William Waynflete [9] are waiting at the head of the church with the Breton ambassador to perform the proxy marriage of Anne of York, Dowager Duchess of Exeter* *in the pews, representing the Yorkists, are Thomas Grey, Earl of Huntingdon and Anne's pregnant namesake daughter, Anne Holland* [10]
*Edward of Westminster is the one to give Anne of York away* *we drop in on the conversation between them midway*
Edward: Madam, I could not do more for my own daughter
Anne: *clearly peeved* I should've hoped you'd have done more for your cousin's widow, sir.
*cut to the end of the service* *Edward kisses Anne's cheeks before climbing onto his horse* *Cardinal Neville is already mounted on his donkey*
Edward: farewell, madam...possibly forever. But should we ever meet again...I hope you will find me much the same. That you will think of me and say...he wasn't altogether bad.
*fade to black as he spurs his horse away before she can respond*
[1] Banbury is near Cropredy Bridge, which, in turn, is near Warwick Castle
[2] Rejoice, Virgin Catherine, for the feast of Saint Catherine of Alexandria on November 25
[3] William Fiennes, 2e Baron Saye and Sele
[3] husband of Anne Wydeville, heir of the earl of Essex
[4] no relation of either Thomas or Oliver, but rather the earl of Essex's second son and husband of the heiress to the barony of Cromwell. which became extinct on his death at the battle of Barnet OTL. Ironically, both the 3e Baron Cromwell and the 1e Baron Saye and Sele had served as Lord Treasurer of England. As did the earl of Essex. To make it more complicated is that 3e Baron Cromwell's elder sister, Maud, was married to Warwick the Kingmaker's little brother
[5] Cordelia's lines from King Lear, Act IV, Scene 7.
[6] thirty-three. Anne of York, Dowager Duchess of Exeter, would be thirty-two as of August 1471. Isabel of Portugal was 33yo when she married Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy. And she still had three kids before hitting forty.
[7] figure that Edward IV likely named his stepson to the title of Earl of Huntingdon earlier (with his father-in-law being dead and all)
[8] Edward's daughter
[9] former chancellor of England and Bishop of Winchester. Why Winchester? It's sort of on the border between what the Yorkists control and the Lancastrians control. In the event of cessation of hostilities for the winter, I could see it being deemed "neutral"
[10] in short, underlining that this is a joint Yorkist-Lancastrian operation
Soundtrack: John Dunstaple - Gaude Virgo Katherina [2]
*Cropredy Bridge* *the earl of Warwick and the 2e Baron Saye and Sele [3] is leading the Lancastrian army in a clash with the Yorkists, led by the earl of Essex's heir and Edward IV's brother-in-law, Viscount Bourchier [4] and his brother, Lord Cromwell [5]*
*cut to Woodstock Palace* *Edward of Westminster is walking outside with his father* *clearly gently leading him through the gardens*
Henry VI: autumn is late this year.
Edward: and the winter will come quicker and harsher yet for it...still...at least Milord Warwick has won at Banbury
Henry VI: *looks panicked* *grips Edward's arm tighter* *he looks like he's about to cry* he has beaten our forces?
Edward: *patiently* no father...the earl of Warwick is on our side. He has beaten the earl of March's army.
Henry VI: he's on our side?
Edward: yes, father. He was the one to release you from your imprisonment in the Tower.
Henry VI: why?
Edward: because the man is like a metaphor: Yorkist one minute, against them the next, and only God in his infinite wisdom knows what is going on in that devious little head
Henry VI: blasphemy! My son will soon see to you for such talk!
Edward: *clearly pained at this lack of recognition from his father* of course, your Majesty. How is he? The prince of Wales?
Henry VI: he is in France with his mother.
Edward: I had heard he's come back. They have both returned.
Henry VI: *shakes head* then why hasn't he come to see me?
Edward: *gently* perhaps he is nearer than you think, Majesty *we see John Wenlock approach* what is it, John?
Wenlock: your Highness, an answer has come from Brittany regarding the duke's marriage.
Edward: *kisses Henry's cheeks* dear God, hang restoration on my lips and let this kiss repair such violent harms...to cure the jarred senses of this child-changed father [5]. *leaves a confused-looking Henry in the care of a page*
*cut to interior* *Marguerite d'Anjou and Edward are both sitting in front of the fireplace*
Marguerite: Edward, be reasonable.
Edward: I am being reasonable, mother. We are isolated. The duke of Brittany is asking for a match with us-
Marguerite: he is asking for a match with the Yorks.
Edward: it is the same thing, Mother.
Marguerite: you would have him father a child by a York girl. A child who can threaten your throne?
Edward: *half smirks* Milady Exeter is nearly the same age as our Lord was when he was crucified [6]. And the duke of Burgundy's mother was even older when she became a bride, yet she was still able to have a child.
Marguerite: *opens mouth to speak*
Edward: especially since Milady Exeter is due to be a grandmother in short order. Isabel has written to Anne with the news that Lady Huntingdon [7]
Marguerite: and what makes you think that the duke of Brittany will accept her?
Edward: he would not be requesting a match with England otherwise. After all, the earl of March's eldest daughter is too young and there are no other daughters save Nanette [8]
Marguerite: the dowager duchess of Burgundy has written suggesting a match between her grandson and your daughter.
Edward: until I have a son, the only match I will consider for Nanette is with the King of Scots' newborn son. And so...we come back to Milady Exeter as duchess of Brittany.
Marguerite: what inclines you to believe she will accept it?
Edward: *smirks again* simple...both her brother and myself are in agreement that she will marry the duke. I see no reason to stand in the way of such a match.
*cut to chapel at Winchester Palace* *title card says "one month later"* *Cardinal Neville, Archbishop of York, assisted by William Waynflete [9] are waiting at the head of the church with the Breton ambassador to perform the proxy marriage of Anne of York, Dowager Duchess of Exeter* *in the pews, representing the Yorkists, are Thomas Grey, Earl of Huntingdon and Anne's pregnant namesake daughter, Anne Holland* [10]
*Edward of Westminster is the one to give Anne of York away* *we drop in on the conversation between them midway*
Edward: Madam, I could not do more for my own daughter
Anne: *clearly peeved* I should've hoped you'd have done more for your cousin's widow, sir.
*cut to the end of the service* *Edward kisses Anne's cheeks before climbing onto his horse* *Cardinal Neville is already mounted on his donkey*
Edward: farewell, madam...possibly forever. But should we ever meet again...I hope you will find me much the same. That you will think of me and say...he wasn't altogether bad.
*fade to black as he spurs his horse away before she can respond*
[1] Banbury is near Cropredy Bridge, which, in turn, is near Warwick Castle
[2] Rejoice, Virgin Catherine, for the feast of Saint Catherine of Alexandria on November 25
[3] William Fiennes, 2e Baron Saye and Sele
[3] husband of Anne Wydeville, heir of the earl of Essex
[4] no relation of either Thomas or Oliver, but rather the earl of Essex's second son and husband of the heiress to the barony of Cromwell. which became extinct on his death at the battle of Barnet OTL. Ironically, both the 3e Baron Cromwell and the 1e Baron Saye and Sele had served as Lord Treasurer of England. As did the earl of Essex. To make it more complicated is that 3e Baron Cromwell's elder sister, Maud, was married to Warwick the Kingmaker's little brother
[5] Cordelia's lines from King Lear, Act IV, Scene 7.
[6] thirty-three. Anne of York, Dowager Duchess of Exeter, would be thirty-two as of August 1471. Isabel of Portugal was 33yo when she married Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy. And she still had three kids before hitting forty.
[7] figure that Edward IV likely named his stepson to the title of Earl of Huntingdon earlier (with his father-in-law being dead and all)
[8] Edward's daughter
[9] former chancellor of England and Bishop of Winchester. Why Winchester? It's sort of on the border between what the Yorkists control and the Lancastrians control. In the event of cessation of hostilities for the winter, I could see it being deemed "neutral"
[10] in short, underlining that this is a joint Yorkist-Lancastrian operation
Love the allegory to Louis XIV and Marie Louise d'Orléans on the eve of her marriage to Spain. She uttered something very similar to Louis XIV.
An interesting play by the Bretons. It seems like they’ll come out of this war decently no matter who wins it
I could genuinely see him inspiring TTL King Lear TBH. With the two scheming sons-in-law being named "York" and "Warwick" as a sort of reference
thank you. The "farewell, madame, farewell forever" and "if we see one another again, you'll find me much the same" are both lines uttered by him OTL as well
the Bretons don't really have much choice in their candidacies. Edward IV wins by it (he gets a tie to Brittany and further entrée into the European circle of kings), Edward of Westminster would gain nothing but further emnity from both Brittany and Edward IV (albeit probably gratitude from Anne of York), so it has a sort of "neutralizing" effect on Yorkist-Breton relations. Not saying Frañsez II will drop his support for Edward IV, but he's potentially not going to support him any more than what Charles the Bold did
hope @Brita approves, I know we've been discussing Frañsez II to Anne of York for what feels like ever
thank you
glad to hear it. The way I see it, even the opponents at the Breton court can be "mollified" with a) she's older, so if she doesn't get pregnant, she'll die sooner; b) if she does get pregnant, it'll be a miracle if she survives; c) by the time she dies, either Mary of Burgundy or Anne of France (simply two potential examples rather than ones who were in the running) will be of marriageable age and King Edward can't complain we didn't want another English match. Mostly d) it has the half-Anjou English consent, so we're keeping the duc d'Anjou happy.
hope you enjoy today's update
any suggestions for anything to look at for December 1471/January 1471? The onset of winter makes it unlikely that there's much going on in either the war fronts between Burgundy-France, in England or Matyas Corvinus-Casimir IV-Charles de Valois in Bohemia
I could propose a look at Medici Florence ( without forgetting that in this period Lorenzo will be grappling with the first conspiracies of rival noble families, and a war against Volterra, all caused by his policies focused on further consolidating family power in the republican institutions ), or at the Paleologos who remained in Italy ( considering that in Otl Sofia left for Moscow in January 1472 ) or perhaps go to the Balkans, a look at how the war between the Ottomans and the alliance between the Venetians and the local resistance is going ( which began in 1463 and ended in 1479 ) it would be interesting to see what happens ( if we consider Paul II's policies in this area, something will have changed ) or as they have already suggested let's go and look at what happens in Denmark
in the end the choice is yours, I believe that whatever you want us to see will be very interesting to read
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the question is what though?
anything specific I should be looking at/for?
very true, I can certainly see greater economic and material support to the rebels in Epirus/Albania, after all Skanderbeg's son is currently in Naples, and obviously Venice will be the one that would benefit the most from Paul's continued pontificate, Scutari will probably not be ceded to Constantinople as Otl, while I can see the Serenissima re-attempting campaigns in the Morea, with the aim of trying to occupy Athens, Modon, Imbros, Thasos, Samothrace again and thus loosen the Ottoman pressure on Scutari ( which after Negroponte was the last great Venetian stronghold in the region ), finally it must be said that the Ottomans could continue the policy of launching large raids in Friuli, Istria and Dalmatia ( or try to land in Italy, to scare Venice's allies and force them to put pressure on the Serenissima to ask for peace ), if everything happens, it is possible that the San Marco, together with Rome and potentially Naples, could decide to play the Paleologos card in the region, in order to convince the Greeks to join the fight more ( if we remember that in 1481, there was a revolt that temporarily frees the entire Morea and a piece of Epirus, it is probable that perhaps the Morea will be partially maintained in TL ) especially because Venice can also count on the support of Hungary and Iberian Kingdoms ? ( Matthias Corvinus had sent reinforcements for the entire period of the conflict in Otl ) and Mehmet II is still simultaneously engaged in Wallachia, certainly this will not lead to a full Palaiologos restoration in the area, but at least it offers a good operational base / original nucleus, from which to start ( or be a safe place for opponents of the Ottoman government to fall back to )
P.s
to conclude Paolo will be able to pass off this war as the crusade that the cardinals had imposed on him upon his election, certainly no one in the curia will believe him, but at least they will not be able to openly criticize him on this topic
technically speaking there would also be the Anglo Hanseatic War of 1469 - 1474 which could become interesting to watch 😜
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Well, Frederik I was born in october 1471, and removing him (Dorothea perhaps miscarries?) or letting him be born a girl would certainly be a big butterfly, since it means that all of Slesvig-Holstein remains with John once Christian I dies. If butterflies are kept at a minimum and we eventually see Christian II come to power, then it also removes a huge thorn in his side. Only a few days after F1’s birth, Christian I also lost disastrously against Sweden at Brunkeberg, which was a huge blow to the union. The war should just be beginning around this point.
Battle of Brunkeberg - Wikipedia
Denmark was numerically inferior against the rebels, but their troops were not poorly armed peasants, so it seems possible that Denmark could win against Sweden here with some minor changes
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