The Rich men North of Washington, or what if the South went Socialist after the American Civil War?

[OstundwestRevived]

The point of divergence is that Lincoln doesn't issue the Emacipation Proclamation in 1863, which here means that while the Slaves are freed they don't immediately gain citizenship. That also mean that the Union revisits Lincoln's old plan to resettle the freed Blacks in Liberia and Central America. This is financed by harshly taking large amount of property and wealth from Southerners who supported the Confederacy. Together with the continued actions of the carpetbaggers and other Northern buissnessmen does this make most Southern Whites and few remaining Blacks dirt poor and this also completely breaks their belief in American style Democratic Capitalism. The Southern USA instead becomes a hotbed for Socialism and Anarchism. The result in of scenario is meant to show up in the 1870s, when prominent Northern Politcians and buissnessmen are starting to be assasinated by Southern anarchists called the People's Klan. So does anyone like this scenario or have any good improvements in mind?

 

[iddt3]

The Liberia settlement was always a pipedream, and would have required a WWII German level of willingness for ethnic cleansing. It's not happening.

There are other ways to get a left wing south (I know it's popped up in several timelines here), but that's not one of them

 

[OstundwestRevived]

The Liberia settlement was always a pipedream, and would have required a WWII German level of willingness for ethnic cleansing. It's not happening.

There are other ways to get a left wing south (I know it's popped up in several timelines here), but that's not one of them

Were did I write that the Blacks would be ethnically cleansed? My idea was that most Blacks when given the oppertuinity of certain and lasting freedom in Liberia or Central America would voluntarily leave the USA. And the Southern economy in this scenario is meant to be killed off by the North's actions while the North itself would not be that much more welcoming for Blacks, so unlike in OTL there will really be no American society that's particullarly pleasant from most Black people to live free in. That's however not to say that all Blacks would leave, because there are of course still be mixed-race groups as the Lousiana Creol and a few former slaves that would not know how to live completely without their former masters. And I'm not intressed in some scenario there the Blacks just kills all White people in the South in order to enable Socialism thank you!

 

[Ymo]

Were did I write that the Blacks would be ethnically cleansed? My idea was that most Blacks when given the oppertuinity of certain and lasting freedom in Liberia or Central America would voluntarily leave the USA. And the Southern economy in this scenario is meant to be killed off by the North's actions while the North itself would not be that much more welcoming for Blacks, so unlike in OTL there will really be no American society that's particullarly pleasant from most Black people to live free in. That's however not to say that all Blacks would leave, because there are of course still be mixed-race groups as the Lousiana Creol and a few former slaves that would not know how to live completely without their former masters. And I'm not intressed in some scenario there the Blacks just kills all White people in the South in order to enable Socialism thank you!

I believe what iddt3 was trying to say that moving millions of black people to Liberia would be tantamount to genocide due lack of Infrastructure there, as well as, the forceful relocation of millions who don't want to leave.

 

[Ymo]

Like if they don't want to leave and you make them then is it genocide.

 

[OstundwestRevived]

I believe what iddt3 was trying to say that moving millions of black people to Liberia would be tantamount to genocide due lack of Infrastructure there, as well as, the forceful relocation of millions who don't want to leave.

You probabily didn't even read my former post. Because then you would have seen that no former slave would be forced to leave America, and that I counted that some of them would still want to live together with their former masters despite the unpleasant times. What you wrote about infrastructure is however a legit complaint, but if the North would just be able to scrape together enough wealth from the Southerners I actually see it as a relatively easy thing to get around.

 

[OstundwestRevived]

Some more ideas for the story, Jesse James and bushwhackers will play a great role in the narrative. I want the story to essentially be of the Latin American Leftist Guerilla-type which mainly takes place in the Classical Wild West. James will essentially be a 19th century version of Fidel Castro that fights for a independent and Socialist South. Since very few alternate history-stories takes place in this type of setting I think this could make for a different and distinct narrative.

 

[CHKeeley]

Were did I write that the Blacks would be ethnically cleansed? My idea was that most Blacks when given the oppertuinity of certain and lasting freedom in Liberia or Central America would voluntarily leave the USA. And the Southern economy in this scenario is meant to be killed off by the North's actions while the North itself would not be that much more welcoming for Blacks, so unlike in OTL there will really be no American society that's particullarly pleasant from most Black people to live free in. That's however not to say that all Blacks would leave, because there are of course still be mixed-race groups as the Lousiana Creol and a few former slaves that would not know how to live completely without their former masters.

Voluntary Colonization societies had existed for decades before the Civil War and had barely gotten off the ground even with generous financial support. Turns out, most freedmen and their families did not want to leave for a harsh coastal colonial outpost where they have no roots in or memory of and where they have little familiarity with the culture, language, and environment. You didn't mention the exact method in your main post, and the relative unpopularity of colonization schemes among former slaves means that you will necessarily have to use Federal force and ethnic cleansing in order to get even a large plurality of African Americans to migrate.

And I'm not intressed in some scenario there the Blacks just kills all White people in the South in order to enable Socialism thank you!

Huh?

This is financed by harshly taking large amount of property and wealth from Southerners who supported the Confederacy. Together with the continued actions of the carpetbaggers and other Northern buissnessmen does this make most Southern Whites and few remaining Blacks dirt poor and this also completely breaks their belief in American style Democratic Capitalism. The Southern USA instead becomes a hotbed for Socialism and Anarchism. The result in of scenario is meant to show up in the 1870s, when prominent Northern Politcians and buissnessmen are starting to be assasinated by Southern anarchists called the People's Klan. So does anyone like this scenario or have any good improvements in mind?

I mean if you want to go ahead an write the story obviously go ahead, but in terms of plausibility this doesn't pass the smell test. Complete expropriation of not just the planter class but all Confederacy-supporting whites is simply not going to happen. The stomach and the machinery to do such a thing just didn't exist - if the Federal gov't couldn't even effectively fight the Klan with its relatively lenient policies OTL I don't see how they could actually just clean the country dry of all material wealth to fund a policy that was already outdated by 1863, let alone 1865 when sentiments had radically changed up north! If you want a southern socialism, I think you'd be better off doing it within the context of a victorious Confederacy rather than in a surviving Union since there's a lot more plausible changes you can make.

 

[durante]

The Southern Homestead Act of 1866 opened up 46 million acres of land in the south; with around 4 million enslaved persons in 1860, you're looking at probably around 1m families, or 46 acres per family, assuming every family remains in the south and wants to take up land. They could have provided land to all the formerly enslaved without taking any land away from anyone.

 

[OstundwestRevived]

One more thing I'm going to add to my story is George Fitzhugh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fitzhugh He was an extremely odd pro-slavery thinker who thought that Southern slavery was a Socialist Utopia which Whites should also be included in. In my scenario he becomes even more of a Socialist while he gradually loses his proto-Fascist opinions due to the Union's authoritarianism and the Blacks leaving America. Fitzhugh will be the chief ideologue of the People's Klan in the same way as Lenin was in the Soviet Communist Party. Combine the Socialist elements of his thought and the traditional anti-Government thought of the American South and we have a truly Southern Social Anarchism.

 

[durante]

Were did I write that the Blacks would be ethnically cleansed? My idea was that most Blacks when given the oppertuinity of certain and lasting freedom in Liberia or Central America would voluntarily leave the USA. And the Southern economy in this scenario is meant to be killed off by the North's actions while the North itself would not be that much more welcoming for Blacks, so unlike in OTL there will really be no American society that's particullarly pleasant from most Black people to live free in. That's however not to say that all Blacks would leave, because there are of course still be mixed-race groups as the Lousiana Creol and a few former slaves that would not know how to live completely without their former masters. And I'm not intressed in some scenario there the Blacks just kills all White people in the South in order to enable Socialism thank you!

sorry I guess I misunderstood. When you said that "resettling" blacks would be financed by taking land from planters, I had thought that the former enslaved would be settled on the land taken from the planters. What you are suggesting, the resettlement of millions of African-Americans in either Liberia or Central America, would be the greatest logistical undertaking in human history if it were done today. In 1860-something, (even ignoring the fact that 99% of the formerly enslaved African-Americans had no desire to leave the USA) this would be logistically impossible.

 

[OstundwestRevived]

sorry I guess I misunderstood. When you said that "resettling" blacks would be financed by taking land from planters, I had thought that the former enslaved would be settled on the land taken from the planters. What you are suggesting, the resettlement of millions of African-Americans in either Liberia or Central America, would be the greatest logistical undertaking in human history if it were done today. In 1860-something, (even ignoring the fact that 99% of the formerly enslaved African-Americans had no desire to leave the USA) this would be logistically impossible.

Yeah, I meant that most Blacks would leave America. And the former South will not be a pleasant place to live in after this Nothern victory, so what most Blacks thought before the Civil War is not particularly relevant here.

 

[durante]

Yeah, I meant that most Blacks would leave America. And the former South will not be a pleasant place to live in after this Nothern victory, so what most Blacks thought before the Civil War is not particularly relevant here.

Most is over two million people. Again, in the 1860s, this is logistically impossible.

 

[Belisarius II]

You probabily didn't even read my former post. Because then you would have seen that no former slave would be forced to leave America, and that I counted that some of them would still want to live together with their former masters despite the unpleasant times. What you wrote about infrastructure is however a legit complaint, but if the North would just be able to scrape together enough wealth from the Southerners I actually see it as a relatively easy thing to get around.

It was a completely unrealistic option for reasons of cost and the fact that despite their great difficulties the overwhelming majority of African Americans didn't want to leave America. For better or worse the USA is the home of African Americans, that's why their called African Americans. Almost all Freed slaves wanted to build their future in the only land they knew. Africa was a distant group memory, and Central America might as well be the Dark side of the Moon.