Interview with Judith Barsi and Heather O'Rourke
From Fresh Air with Terry Gross, first aired August 15th, 2009
Guest post by
@MNM041 with assistance from
@Plateosaurus and
@nick_crenshaw82
Barsi and O'Rourke attending the 2005 Academy Awards.
TG: Hello and welcome again to Fresh Air, I'm Terry Gross. With me today is actress Jude Barsi, who most recently lent her voice to Disney's Haunted Mansion, as well as her partner, Heather O'Rourke[1], who also contributed to
Haunted Mansion having written a large chunk of that film's screenplay. We’re here to talk about their work and the story behind their relationship. Jude, welcome back. Heather, thank you for joining us.
JB: Thanks for having us Terry.
HO: Hello.
TG: We last spoke with Jude back in ‘96 and it's obvious to see that quite a bit has changed since then.
JB: Nah, I'm still pretty much the same. (Laughs)
TG: Jude, you've also recently ventured into writing and directing with
Damsel, a deconstruction of classic fairy tale tropes, which came out in 2002. What was the experience like there?
JB: That's right,
Damsel was probably one of the funest experiences I've had while working on a movie. I just loved getting the chance to write and direct for the movie. I loved getting to work with Steve Buscemi, he was awesome. It was just incredible and I loved every second of it. I especially loved playing the only Disney princess to have tattoos, that [bleep]ing awesome.
TG: Indeed, if you don't mind me asking, how similar would you feel you are to your character Rebekah?
JB: Well, as I'm one of the people who came up with Rebekah I'd say pretty similar. I mean, I probably don't have the capabilities of pulling off the scams she's pulled, but that's about it.
HO: She's only saying that because she doesn't want to be suspected by the police.
JB: (Laughs) Oh, hush you.
TG: The same year
Damsel was released, you also made a rare appearance in a live-action project, with
Meet The Joneses: The Guest. That was when you two came back into each other's lives.
JB: Yeah, while I didn't have to wear any oversized tentacles on my head, it certainly was another example of why I prefer doing voice work. Studios need to learn that not everything needs to be a goddamn franchise.
HO: That right there is the same thing Don Mancini told me when I asked him why he wasn't coming back.
TG: Is it true that you two became an item while filming that movie?
JB: We've never been a fan of describing it that way but yeah, things started between us around the end of production. We'd known each other long before that, given she's Drew's best friend[2], but I didn't know much about her before working on that movie.
TG: I see, she's another "survivor of child acting" as you once put it.
JB: That health scare she had was a blessing in disguise.
HO: I'll be the first to tell you that I had it much easier than a lot of my friends.
JB: She never had to deal with creeps who wanted to see her tits the way I or Samantha did. I think at first I was kind of jealous of her, in the same way I was with Samantha, that she had the life I wished I had.
HO: In a weird way, I always felt kind of bad for that. Like whenever I listened to one of my friends vent about the horror stories. I know that sounds insane but that's how I felt.
TG: So Jude, what led you to star in one of her movies then?
JB: I just got over it. (Laughs) I mean, Heather always tried to be nice whenever we hung out and a part of me just felt so bad that I was resentful. She's like this big, excitable kid that you can't help but feel happy around her. So, when she offered me a role, I figured, “If Drew likes her, I should at least be nice to her.”
TG: And how exactly did you become a couple?
HO: This woman saved my life.
JB: (laughs) I wish you would stop saying it like that.
HO: Why? It's pretty much what happened.
JB: You're so dramatic sometimes.
TG: What exactly are you both referring to?
HO: Okay, so I've talked about this before but I suffer from real severe imposter syndrome[3]. Having a lot of people chalk my success up to luck, it affects you.
TG: And you worried that they may be right?
HO: Exactly. Even after
Meet The Joneses came out, and I had people comparing me to these horror legends, I had this fear that I didn't deserve it, and I just started pressuring myself that my follow up had to be great. This eventually led me to start drinking to calm my nerves. I hid it well enough that I didn't even think anything was wrong. I always thought that since I wasn't showing up to the set drunk it wasn't affecting me. I wanted to be a director people took seriously. I also have this desperate desire for people to like me and as a result, I refused to let anyone see how stressed I was getting.
TG: Was the fact that Jude had recently come off her own directorial debut a factor in this?
HO: Yeah. Around this time I was also slowly starting to realize I was bi, which also made some early interactions between us weird, because I couldn't tell if I was into her or if I wanted to
be her.
JB: (laughs) You really are the only person that would ever say that.
HO: Jude is blessed with the ability to not give a [bleep] about what anyone thinks about her. It's one of the many things I love about her.
JB: Well, either way, Heather may have been good at hiding her issues, but that doesn't mean I couldn't see it.
TG: And you felt like you had to help her?
JB: Yeah, I could tell Heather was having issues, and I wanted to be there for her.
HO: She could tell I was spiraling and reached out to me more times than I probably deserved.
JB: Don't talk like that.
HO: I would basically try to shut down any attempt from her to get close to me, until one day, towards the end of production, in August I wanna say, she just went to my hotel room with Drew, and found me drunk off my ass. I saw the writing on the wall that the movie probably wasn't going to do well, and I was basically crying because I was scared that I was gonna be a joke forever.
JB: Eventually, Drew and I managed to get Heather to a point where she admitted she needed to quit drinking. I ended up being by her side throughout a lot of it just because my own family history with alcohol made me worry about her, but eventually I realized I started to realize that it went deeper than just worry.
TG: That was when you realized you had feelings for her?
JB: Yeah, and I think that realization was terrifying for both of us.
HO: It was especially terrifying for me because I had only ever dated guys, and I found myself worried about all the ways I could screw it up.
TG: In what ways?
JB: I told you about this before but Heather knew about my “type”, how most of the people I dated were too much like my dear old Dad.
HO: Long story short, because of this, I kept worrying that I might [bleep] this up somehow and I don't want to be the reason someone I care about is going to therapy. Then there was the fact that I was technically still Jude's
boss at the time, and I didn't want the press to hound her about that.
JB: I had to keep reassuring her in the early days. We ended up finding out eventually that Heather has ADHD, which results in her brain often going a mile a minute. As a result, she'd overthink every little thing and worry about what she could be doing wrong.
HO: Jude ended up getting me into marijuana, which has helped me regulate things. She's just about the one person I know always has faith in me.
TG: Heather, your relationship with Jude also led you to becoming a mental health activist as well.
HO: Yeah, it was part of why I ended up directing those PSAs Jude did with Kurt [Cobain][4]. I think before Jude and I started dating, I kept looking at the comparatively privileged upbringing I had compared to Jude and Drew, and I thought I didn't have a right to complain.
JB: Which I made sure to tell her was complete bull[bleep]. It's not a competition. If you have problems, you shouldn't be afraid to get help for them[5].
HO: I know that she finds it annoying when I say this, but she really did save my life. I've been sober for about seven years now.
JB: I do find it annoying, but I never get tired of how much of a romantic she is.
TG: Did your involvement with Jude play any factor in your decision to sign on for
Haunted Mansion as a writer?
HO: Yes, and-
JB: She wrote all my [bleep]ing best lines.
HO: Well, I don't know about that, but I will say that it was a big part of the reason. Writing funny lines for Jude was fairly easy, especially considering I think she's the funniest woman in the world.
JB: Oh, you are such a sap.
HO: You love it.
JB: (Laughs) Sometimes, I feel like I'm dating a Disney princess, so you can certainly see why she was a great fit for
Haunted Mansion.
TG: On the subject of family films, you two have recently announced that you were working on one together.
HO: Yeah, it's kind of inspired by an episode
Primeval, which funnily enough was something Jude convinced me to sign on for . It's about a young boy who discovers a preserved egg that eventually hatches a dinosaur.
JB: When you first described that premise, I fully thought it was going to be in the animated movie where I played the kid.
HO: (Impression of Stryker from
Land Before Time) Yeah, but I knew you were starting to get sick of doing voices like this.
JB: (Laughs) Sometimes I regret showing you how to do that voice.
HO: It also came from the fact that Jude and I are moms now.
JB: Yeah. God, that's still so weird to say.
TG: I was just about to get that. Many people were shocked when Jude announced her pregnancy back in 2006[6].
JB: Yeah, I know. It was weird for us when it happened. We'd been living together for a few years by that point. I came by the set for
The Wendigo and I saw Heather with the child actors. She's really good with kids, which is always something I really liked about her. I remember I came to set, and I think I saw Heather personally climbing up a tree to help one of the kid actors who had climbed up and was too scared to climb down on their own.
HO: I told them not to wander off like that.
JB: I'd never thought about having kids. My own childhood was so [bleeped] up that it never really felt like a logical step forward… but Heather once told me she wanted to be a mom, and after seeing her with the kids, I ended up thinking that I could see myself having kids with her.
HO: When she told me that, I panicked. We both knew adoption would be an uphill battle because we're not married and surrogacy wouldn't be an option with my health history.
JB: I suddenly blurted out that I'd be willing to do it. After a few months of planning, we were preparing to become Moms.
TG: And how did your pregnancy affect your home life?
JB: Well, Heather already worships the ground I walk on, but during my pregnancy she basically treated me like I was made of glasses and she was worried I'd shatter. I'd normally think that was annoying, but it made me feel better about my decision, because I kept thinking, “She's going to be a really good Mom.”
HO: She randomly told me that at one point, and I think I cried when I heard that.
JB: You definitely did.
HO: Well, it was just important to me because I wanted you to feel like it was worth it to just go through all that.
JB: I know, I love you for that.
HO: I think becoming parents was part of what inspired us when it came to writing
Dear Old Dad last year, at least on my end.
TG: How so?
HO: Well, I had this fear that I was going to turn into the main character at some point. I already work a lot and I think the notion that I would end up missing out on Jonah's life, it terrified me.
JB: And to clear, she really is a good mom. She had no reason to be worried about becoming that.
HO: Thanks honey.
TG: Jude, if you don't mind me asking, did you ever have similar worries about how you'd be as a parent.
JB: Yeah, I mean, I had this worry that I was just too damaged to connect with a kid. Heather kind of helped me through that.
HO: I wouldn't really say I did much. I just pointed out that there are a lot of young people in the industry who saw Jude as a mentor figure. Especially former child stars. Bridgette is a big example.
TG: That's Bridgette Andersen[7], right?
JB: Yeah, I met her while we were both working on an episode of
High School Sucks back in ‘96, three weeks after our first interview now that I think about[8].
HO: Yeah, I suppose I should mention that I'm far from the first person Jude's helped out of a dark place. Whenever Jude sees someone who's struggling, she always tries to reach out.
JB: You make me sound like I'm Wonder Woman.
HO: She could tell that Bridgette was having issues and she helped get to go to rehab.
JB: Then I got Heather to agree to put her in a few of her movies.
HO: Bridgette is an absolute trooper by the way. She actually told me exactly how she wanted to die in both of her appearances in the
Meet The Joneses movies.
JB: I think she's got a future behind the camera too.
HO: Yeah, she really does.
TG: Back on topic, Heather, are your fears of being absent in your child's life the reasons behind your comments about wanting to take a break from filmmaking.
HO: Yeah. I suppose I should clarify that I'm not planning on doing that immediately, I still have a few projects lined up, but between those fears and all just not wanting to go through burnout. I still got a bit left before that too. I'd say it also had a bit to do with something Karen told me.
JB: Oh right, did I forget to mention that my girlfriend is just casually friends with Karen [bleep]ing Carpenter. She's actually the reason I got to meet her. It was [bleep]ing cool.
TG: How did that come about?
HO: How'd we become friends or how'd I play a part in her meeting Jude?
TG: Both if you don't mind.
HO: Well, when I was a still a student at NYU, I ended getting a job as a set designer for one of 7 Year Bitch’s music videos, we were shooting in Long Island for reasons I can't really remember, but because of that, Karen Carpenter and Debbie Harry ended up dropping by the set. I knew they were mostly there to talk to the band, because I knew they worked out the production deal for them, but I couldn't resist the urge to introduce myself.
JB: Didn't you say one of them knew who you were?
HO: Vaguely. At one point during the conversation Karen looked me up and down and said, “Hey, aren't you the little girl from Poltergeist?” I think I almost fainted after that.
JB: Which was also my reaction when you took me backstage to meet her after one of her live shows in 2005.
(Heather and Jude both laugh)
HO: Back on topic, Karen and I became friends through our working relationship. I've used her music for three of my movies so far, and since she owns the masters to all her music outright. She is without a doubt, one of the nicest people I've ever met.
JB: She [bleep]ing rules.
TG: So, you said your friendship with Carpenter influenced your desire to step back eventually?
HO: Yeah, she told me she was worried I was overworking myself. She told me, “You keep working yourself like this, you and Jonah are gonna have a lot of catching up to do.” I do think she meant to make me worried about how present I am, but that ended up being what happened. I think it ended up being a wake up call for me because it made me reexamine how much parenting duties both covered.
JB: Yeah, so I'll end up being the breadwinner pretty soon.
(Heather and Jude laugh)
HO: Terry, I'm just going say it right now. God willing, I'm going to marry this woman some day[9].
JB: Yeah, I know I started this interview by saying that I'm a hell of a lot happier than I was back in ‘96.
TG: I certainly can tell. We'll need to take a short break. We’ll be back in a few minutes to speak more with Jude and Heather. This is Fresh Air on NPR.
— — — —
[1] This is a sort of sequel to a post from the main timeline, entitled Hey Jude.
[2] This was mentioned in a previous post about Heather. During the hiatus she had after a health scare, Drew was essentially the only famous friend she maintained contact with.
[3] This is an idea I came up with due to the fact that I had unintentionally given Heather a lot of lucky breaks, and felt like it would be fairly easy for someone in her position to fall into these traps.
[4] Credit to
@Geekhis Khan for that idea.
[5] A message to anyone reading this: take care of yourself, no matter what they are, your problems are valid.
[6] Jonah ends up being born December 27th of that year, sharing a birthday with his other Mom.
[7] This person:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgette_Andersen
[8] Anderson appears as one of the young girls Jude's character “baited” as it was put in the original “Hey Jude” chapter.
[9]
@Geekhis Khan had indicated that same sex marriage is likely legalized around the same time. Since Jude and Heather live in California, that day for them ends up coming in 2013.