What if Augustus does even better than OTL?

[Krishna123]

I think these key changes would make his rule even better
1: The disaster of varus in germania does not happen….
2: Tiberius dies while in exile……
3: the major silver deposits of the balkans discovered (in otl not until 16th century I think) and worked extensively reducing the trade imbalance with the east (China loves silver, so the east loves silver)

Anything more would be a wank lol l…..

Discuss!!

 

[bguy]

I think these key changes would make his rule even better

2: Tiberius dies while in exile……

#2 is actually really bad for Augustus. After Agrippa died Tiberius was Augustus' main military commander, and after his return from exile he cleaned up some really difficult situations for Augustus. (The Great Illyrian Revolt and the aftermath of the Varian Disaster.) Admittedly, you've gotten rid of the Varian Disaster, but Augustus still needs Tiberius to deal with the revolt in Illyria and will be hurting for a decent commander for that war if he doesn't have Tiberius.

 

[Krishna123]

#2 is actually really bad for Augustus. After Agrippa died Tiberius was Augustus' main military commander, and after his return from exile he cleaned up some really difficult situations for Augustus. (The Great Illyrian Revolt and the aftermath of the Varian Disaster.) Admittedly, you've gotten rid of the Varian Disaster, but Augustus still needs Tiberius to deal with the revolt in Illyria and will be hurting for a decent commander for that war if he doesn't have Tiberius.

Fair point, I always favoured germanicus as a replacement for Tiberius?
There was a generation of men blooded in the civil war available as generals.
Plus if germania is semi secured they could raise German auxiliaries to help crush the rebels?
The main thing is they have a fresh population to exploit and romanise in the Germans solving many issues later on…..
The Proto cities destroyed in the rebellion would thrive and maybe this would lead to the development of the heavy plough etc

 

[bguy]

Fair point, I always favoured germanicus as a replacement for Tiberius?

Germanicus is certainly a much more engaging and likeable character than dour old Tiberius. That said I'm not entirely certain that Germanicus would prove to be a better emperor. In particular he seemed to be bold almost to the point of recklessness (which nearly led to disaster during his German campaign.) As emperor Germanicus is likely to pursue a much more aggressive foreign policy than Tiberius did, which might well end up with Rome overextended and bogged down in wars in both Germany and the east. Germanicus is also likely to be much more extravagant with his spending (which is not entirely a bad thing as Tiberius was probably a little too tight fisted), but we can be sure Germanicus will not bequeath a full treasury to his successor like Tiberius did.

OTOH with Germanicus as emperor, his successor (who will presumably be one of his sons) is bound to be far more stable than Caligula IOTL (even if the successor still ends up being Caligula) since they will not experience all the traumas growing up that Caligula endured IOTL.

There was a generation of men blooded in the civil war available as generals.

By the time of the Great Illyrian Revolt it had been 35 years since the civil wars, so anyone with command experience from the civil wars will be long retired or dead. And anyway Augustus was very paranoid about entrusting large armies to anyone outside his family. (And the Illyrian Revolt involved a very large army as Rome ended up deploying something like 10 legions to crush the revolt.) Tiberius is a very capable general, he's personally loyal to Augustus, and he's family. That's a combination that is not going to be easy for Augustus to replace. (Which is why Augustus kept relying on Tiberius to lead his armies in major crisis situations even though Augustus really didn't like him.)

Plus if germania is semi secured they could raise German auxiliaries to help crush the rebels?

That's OTL though as the Romans did think Germany was pacified at the time of the Illyrian Revolt (6AD). The Varian Disaster did not occur until shortly after the Illyrians were defeated.

 

[Legalize Crack]

#2 is actually really bad for Augustus. After Agrippa died Tiberius was Augustus' main military commander, and after his return from exile he cleaned up some really difficult situations for Augustus. (The Great Illyrian Revolt and the aftermath of the Varian Disaster.) Admittedly, you've gotten rid of the Varian Disaster, but Augustus still needs Tiberius to deal with the revolt in Illyria and will be hurting for a decent commander for that war if he doesn't have Tiberius.

Possibly the worst thing Robert Graves ever did in his life was write so much falsity and drama into I, Claudius instead of sticking to history.

 

[StevenIronside]

If your intent on Tiberius dieing, then your next best possible succession is either Nero Claudius Drusus, his stepson, or if Gaius and Lucius Caesar both survived, as imo Germanicus may still have been to young upon his succession

 

[Lalli]

Whilst Tiberius was pretty flawed emperor he was capable commander so I would spare him. About Germanicus I am not so sure. And Roman history proves that generals made ratherly poor emperors altough there was too some expections.

My proposal would be let either Gaius or Lucius Caesar (Augustus' grandsons) survive and another of them becoming emperor or both being co-emperors (altough latter might not be great idea). We don't know them much since they died pretty young but it would be just intresting see them surviving.

 

[Krishna123]

One thought that has always confused me especially about the initial period of Pax Romana is why there was never a school of officers? They had schools of medicine and philosophy both natural and metaphysical so why not military?
I know the system as it stood was one of military apprenticship/sponsorship/patron-client essentially but a central school in Rome idea (they had the texts and the veterans to teach afterall)
This could lead to a general staff system divorced from
Personal loyalty somewhat

 

[Krishna123]

Plus no one has any thoughts on massively increasing the silver supply as a means of changing Roman history?
Imagine Augustus successor with a full treasury and the extra legions…….
Imagine his successor didn’t go mad and stage orgies on capri until he dies while the praetorian prefect kills off large parts of the imperial family and old elites…
Ps I hate sejanus and Tiberius lol…

 

[bguy]

One thought that has always confused me especially about the initial period of Pax Romana is why there was never a school of officers? They had schools of medicine and philosophy both natural and metaphysical so why not military?
I know the system as it stood was one of military apprenticship/sponsorship/patron-client essentially but a central school in Rome idea (they had the texts and the veterans to teach afterall)
This could lead to a general staff system divorced from
Personal loyalty somewhat

One of the key aspects of the Augustan political system was Augustus letting the Senate feel like they still mattered. This meant not just consulting with senators and letting them manage certain civil administration tasks like the grain supply and the aqueducts, but also assigning senators to important provincial commands where they were in command of troops. Indeed this is one of the reasons we start seeing year long consulships become increasingly rare in the back half of Augustus' reign. Augustus (and his successors) wanted to be able to appoint as many consuls as possible each year, in part because of the political patronage involved but also because they needed more men of proconsular ranks to serve as their legates in the imperial provinces.

Creating a professional officer class would undercut this, since if you have professional officers then there is no reason to appoint senators to command the legions. Thus, creating such a program would be an affront to senatorial dignity and risk undermining the stability of the Principate.

(Also, from the standpoint of the Julio-Claudian emperors having the troops motivated by personal loyalty to the emperor was a feature not a bug of the system, since they were the family to whom the troops were loyal.)

Plus no one has any thoughts on massively increasing the silver supply as a means of changing Roman history?
Imagine Augustus successor with a full treasury and the extra legions…….

Well if the successor is still Tiberius then it won't actually matter since he'll never spend the extra money or use the extra troops

Imagine his successor didn’t go mad and stage orgies on capri until he dies while the praetorian prefect kills off large parts of the imperial family and old elites…

The stories about orgies probably should be taken with a grain of salt (Claims of sexual depravity were a common feature of Roman political invective.)

Otherwise, while Tiberius was certainly resentful and paranoid in the back half of his reign, I don't think it's fair to say that he went mad. The stories about him being a recluse on Capri are greatly exaggerated as he returned to mainland Italy multiple times during that period. (We know for instance that he came very close to Rome in both 32 and 33 AD). And while Tiberius was rather disengaged in managing the day to day affairs of the empire in the back half of his reign, he was still capable of providing strong, effective leadership in regards to genuine threats to the empire (witness his take down of Sejanus or his response to the financial crisis of 33 AD or his response to the Parthians trying to seize Armenia in 35 AD) or when disaster struck (as seen by his providing succor to the victims of the Fidenae amphitheater collapse (which supposedly saw 50,000 people hurt or killed) and to the victims of the major fires that struck Rome in 27 and 35 AD.)

The political murders are true of course, and are a major black mark on Tiberius' reign, but it's worth remembering that Claudius (supposedly a good emperor) killed pretty much just as many people of senatorial rank as Tiberius did (and this despite Claudius reigning 10 years less than Tiberius). That doesn't excuse Tiberius' murders of course, but it's just a reminder that all of the Julio-Claudian emperors had quite a lot of blood on their hands.

Ps I hate sejanus and Tiberius lol…

Understandable.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

How about Arminius staying loyal to Rome? That eliminates the Varian Disaster and gifts Rome a competent commander in one PoD.

 

[Lalli]

How about Arminius staying loyal to Rome? That eliminates the Varian Disaster and gifts Rome a competent commander in one PoD.

Marbod, another strong German chief would be still big problem unless Arminius can eliminate him.

 

[isabella]

Fair point, I always favoured germanicus as a replacement for Tiberius?
There was a generation of men blooded in the civil war available as generals.
Plus if germania is semi secured they could raise German auxiliaries to help crush the rebels?
The main thing is they have a fresh population to exploit and romanise in the Germans solving many issues later on…..
The Proto cities destroyed in the rebellion would thrive and maybe this would lead to the development of the heavy plough etc

I think you will need a longer living Drusus or Agrippa for preventing the problem with Tiberius. Him dying in exile would be of little use (unless that is earlier enough to allo Julia to remarry as she wanted or at least prevent her scandal and exile). If you simply do not want Tiberius as Emperor kill him off a couple of years before Augustus leaving an older Germanicus as heir

 

[imperiusdamian]

Best way to butterfly Tiberius' reign away would be to give Augustus a son. Preferably born before Actium so he's had a chance to learn and grow during Augustus' own rule.

 

[Krishna123]

Best way to butterfly Tiberius' reign away would be to give Augustus a son. Preferably born before Actium so he's had a chance to learn and grow during Augustus' own rule.

Given his intelligence and that of his wife this would produce one of two things.
1: an earlier Caligula this time is the son of Augustus
2: or super Augustus scion the founder of the greater Roman Empire! Germania, Dacia, Britainia, Armenia, Arabia and kush here we come 🧐😂

 

[Krishna123]

I think you will need a longer living Drusus or Agrippa for preventing the problem with Tiberius. Him dying in exile would be of little use (unless that is earlier enough to allo Julia to remarry as she wanted or at least prevent her scandal and exile). If you simply do not want Tiberius as Emperor kill him off a couple of years before Augustus leaving an older Germanicus as heir

Both living longer would be good for the empire certainly!

Tiberius not made to divorce his first love and wife would be good for his mental health rather than being forced to marry Julia! Maybe he falls in battle with the rebels in Illyria or does an otl germanicus and fall off his horse?

Julia was always an issue, a woman with the right intelligence and drive as her father without the ability because if her sex to rule in person ( similar to the children today of celebs or powerful politician's ish) maybe if she married a weak man who she co grilled in every way made emperor after her fathers death and ruled with a silken gloved hand the Roman Empire?

 

[Krishna123]

Marbod, another strong German chief would be still big problem unless Arminius can eliminate him.

He could be leveraged into the senatorial class (along with others) like in Gaul?
Then his son might marry into the imperial family (after being held hostage in Rom for most of his life?
Marbods elimination would be one of the loyalty tasks that the Romans would assign a loyal stooge/apprentice oppressor

 

[Krishna123]

One of the key aspects of the Augustan political system was Augustus letting the Senate feel like they still mattered. This meant not just consulting with senators and letting them manage certain civil administration tasks like the grain supply and the aqueducts, but also assigning senators to important provincial commands where they were in command of troops. Indeed this is one of the reasons we start seeing year long consulships become increasingly rare in the back half of Augustus' reign. Augustus (and his successors) wanted to be able to appoint as many consuls as possible each year, in part because of the political patronage involved but also because they needed more men of proconsular ranks to serve as their legates in the imperial provinces.

Creating a professional officer class would undercut this, since if you have professional officers then there is no reason to appoint senators to command the legions. Thus, creating such a program would be an affront to senatorial dignity and risk undermining the stability of the Principate.

(Also, from the standpoint of the Julio-Claudian emperors having the troops motivated by personal loyalty to the emperor was a feature not a bug of the system, since they were the family to whom the troops were loyal.)



Well if the successor is still Tiberius then it won't actually matter since he'll never spend the extra money or use the extra troops



The stories about orgies probably should be taken with a grain of salt (Claims of sexual depravity were a common feature of Roman political invective.)

Otherwise, while Tiberius was certainly resentful and paranoid in the back half of his reign, I don't think it's fair to say that he went mad. The stories about him being a recluse on Capri are greatly exaggerated as he returned to mainland Italy multiple times during that period. (We know for instance that he came very close to Rome in both 32 and 33 AD). And while Tiberius was rather disengaged in managing the day to day affairs of the empire in the back half of his reign, he was still capable of providing strong, effective leadership in regards to genuine threats to the empire (witness his take down of Sejanus or his response to the financial crisis of 33 AD or his response to the Parthians trying to seize Armenia in 35 AD) or when disaster struck (as seen by his providing succor to the victims of the Fidenae amphitheater collapse (which supposedly saw 50,000 people hurt or killed) and to the victims of the major fires that struck Rome in 27 and 35 AD.)

The political murders are true of course, and are a major black mark on Tiberius' reign, but it's worth remembering that Claudius (supposedly a good emperor) killed pretty much just as many people of senatorial rank as Tiberius did (and this despite Claudius reigning 10 years less than Tiberius). That doesn't excuse Tiberius' murders of course, but it's just a reminder that all of the Julio-Claudian emperors had quite a lot of blood on their hands.



Understandable.

All Romans of equestrian rank or higher had hands bathed in blood one way or another just from slavery alone….
The rule of Paranoia then applies ‘sometime they really are out to get you’
My issue with Tiberius is partly down to the anti him propaganda but mostly with his inaction after his father in laws death.
Yeah he dealt with all the crisis, didn’t spend the treasury on crap and gladiators but delegation in the Roman system just leads eventually to civil war or coup attempts as per sejanus.
A professional officer class was essentially what the equestrian order was meant to be with the senatorial class providing the higher officers and mid level commanders? Plus loads of other stuff!
The school for officers would be in Rome, under the control and administrated by senate with loyalty to Rome rather than the emperor ( but propaganda would present the emperor as Rome so……🧐)
The move away from year long pro consuls (for senatorial provinces, which could be increased in number) could be accelerated into a proper 4 or 6 year term allowing better administration and growth

If Augustus was really clever he could move more crap onto the senate that matters but is not key to military matters meaning that the illusion fi the republic through paper thin might increase by the end of his reign to be cardboard thick?

 

[Lalli]

Best way to butterfly Tiberius' reign away would be to give Augustus a son. Preferably born before Actium so he's had a chance to learn and grow during Augustus' own rule.

Julia the Elder could born as male so now Augustus then would has son. Augustus then could groom him as his successor. With good luck this could produce bit longer stability altough probably Caesar Dynasty not last very long. Roman dynasties had generally pretty poor life expectacy. In few generations there probably will be emperor who ruins everything and yet manage to kill all of his relatives like Nero did in OTL.

 

[Yeiro]

All Romans of equestrian rank or higher had hands bathed in blood one way or another just from slavery alone….
The rule of Paranoia then applies ‘sometime they really are out to get you’
My issue with Tiberius is partly down to the anti him propaganda but mostly with his inaction after his father in laws death.
Yeah he dealt with all the crisis, didn’t spend the treasury on crap and gladiators but delegation in the Roman system just leads eventually to civil war or coup attempts as per sejanus.
A professional officer class was essentially what the equestrian order was meant to be with the senatorial class providing the higher officers and mid level commanders? Plus loads of other stuff!
The school for officers would be in Rome, under the control and administrated by senate with loyalty to Rome rather than the emperor ( but propaganda would present the emperor as Rome so……🧐)
The move away from year long pro consuls (for senatorial provinces, which could be increased in number) could be accelerated into a proper 4 or 6 year term allowing better administration and growth

If Augustus was really clever he could move more crap onto the senate that matters but is not key to military matters meaning that the illusion fi the republic through paper thin might increase by the end of his reign to be cardboard thick?

It may seem like a good idea in hindsight but a defining characteristic of Augustus was that he always tried to make the senate feel like they still where important for fear of repeating Caesar's errors even at the height of his reign when the senate was powerless and the population loved him as a god he still pretended that Rome was still the republic republic instead of the monarchy in all but name that it was Augustus never would do something that could risk earning him the ire of the senatorial class even after he eliminate any real power they had