Without a Washington Naval Treaty, when do pre-dreadnoughts start getting scrapped?

[generalurist]

In OTL despite the rise of Dreadnought battleships, a lot of navies kept their already-built pre-dreadnoughts all the way through World War 1 and further. A lot of them, such as the Japanese ones, weren't disarmed until the Washington Naval Treaty in 1922 mandated it. This makes me wonder: In an alternate TL where the treaty did not mandate scrapping older ships, or a different post-war political situation averts such a treaty completely, how long do pre-dreadnought battleships stay in service in major navies?

OTL the Germans showed that it is possible to keep them running until the 1940s, though they were forced to do so by circumstances and I don't know if it would be worth it for other navies.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Immediately, navies that have even 1st generation Dreadnoughts would prefer to spend their resources on keeping them in service, rather than any Pre Dreadnoughts they still have. Any navy still with Pre Dreadnoughts will want to buy any 1st Generation Dreadnoughts the major navies may be retiring and with no WNT are free to sell on.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Its circumstantial

If you are the RN then they are scrapped pretty much as soon as the war ends or earlier if the perceived need is that they are no longer needed

If you are a smaller, dare I say poorer navy, such as a south American nation for example or in the case of the defeated Germany only allowed to retain a few Pre Dreads then the situation is different and such vessels might survive into the 40s.

Of course as Peg Leg Pom suggests above with no WNT then it is likely that many of the older Dreadnoughts - particularly those of the RN might find a 2nd life in some of those 'poorer' navys and not scrapped as per OTL.

And in that situation many of the Pre Dreads that did survive post WW1 OTL are even less likely to survive in this TL.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

They'd started being scrapped even before WWI OTL

Without a WNT they are probably scrapped on schedule for the British, French and Italians, the former had basically done it, the later two were allowed to keep them and scrapped them to save money, and even scrapped Dreadnoughts they could have kept. The US and Japan may keep theirs longer, the US got rid of 10 and Japan 7 due to WNT. However they are likely just placed in reserve/used as training vessels for a few more years until more new construction commissions, so maybe they last an extra 5 years for US, up to 10 for the Japanese Satsuma Semi-Dreads IMO, and instead of scrapping/use as target more get converted to auxiliary duties

 

[torten]

The US might keep some for training use which is latterly what they were using them for, for a couple more years. The Japanese might end up scrapping or converting their Pre-dreadnoughts in the mid-late twenties, given if they complete even half of the 8-8 fleet, they won't have the resources to man them or keep them in service. The Washington Naval Treaty probably had little effect on the decline of pre-dreadnoughts beyond speeding the demise of a handful of ships. The Satsuma class might survive longer if included in the Washington Naval Treaty, but short of a POD such as a shorter WW1 the pre-dreadnought is not going to outlast the twenties beyond a few stragglers, like OTL.

If WW1 ended in 1916, or 1917, the French and Italians might decide to modernise some of their pre-dreadnoughts depending on how events pan out.

 

[CV12Hornet]

The Royal Nav had already shuffled them out of service; the survivors were pretty much all barracks ships or gunnery training ships or other such non-combat roles. The US was doing the same.

Japan probably would've shuffled them out of service as the 8-8 fleet was commissioned with the 14" battleships taking over as second-line vessels. A few might have stuck around until the 1930s as coast defense ships.

As per OTL, Italy would only keep theirs until the mid-1920s, when financial constraints mandated their retirement.

France would've likely kept the Dantons on as training ships until the 1930s, per OTL.

 

[CV(N)-6]

Not very many minor nations had pre-dreads, unless you count coast defense ships as such, but the Greeks retired theirs in the mid 1930's, so I expect any with a small navy would be gone before 1936. The major navies for the most part had taken the majority of their pre-dreads out of service, although the French and Italians kept a couple in service into the twenties.

 

[marathag]

The Royal Nav had already shuffled them out of service; the survivors were pretty much all barracks ships or gunnery training ships or other such non-combat roles.

Almost everything launched from 1906 with Dreadnought, to the Iron Dukes of 1912, was set to be scrapped in 1921, with the remainders in 1922. That was like 15 ships, each far better than any Pre-Dreadnought.

Those old ships are all set to be made to Razor Blades that weren't expended as target-- with a handful set to be memorials, like USS Oregon.

Only third rates powers would keep any pre-1906 ships, and that's if they couldn't buy cast offs from the British or US, which they might sell in a world without a Washington Treaty.

 

[MichaelWest]

On average, with maintenance and refit, most warships served about 20 years before technology, tactics and economics favor new construction. They can be made to last double that if needed but at doubtful to dubious worth. Wartime usage, battle damage or a revolution in technology might cut short the valuable life. So for auxillary roles they can be retained as long as one finds use of them.

In orderly fashion all pre- dreads were on borrowed time after Dreadnought, and virtually doomed post Jutland. Even the first generation dreadnoughts were doubtful post Jutland and add in war usage their lives are spent. Without post war austerity or treaty limitations I think a few pre-dreads might linger in the auxillary roles, some as coastal defense boats and some as hulks, maybe more than assumed as early dreadnoughts get sold as warships rather than fill these tasks. But most are worth more as scrap.

Even without treaty limits I think everything built pretty Jutland is mentally written off, every new hull mandates scraping of the obsolete now, aside from my caveat, pre- dreads are really worthless. So I would not presume them to last beyond the 1920s unless another war is truly predicted as imminent.

 

[Jellico]

The world needs more oil jetties.

It is remarkable just how many odds and ends the RN had lying around the place.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The world needs more oil jetties.

It is remarkable just how many odds and ends the RN had lying around the place.

To be fair a no WNT scenario may mean the price of scrap is high enough that oil jetty ends up as scrap, as the oil jetty option was taken after no one wanted her for scrap

No WNT both means fewer ships scrapped and more ships being built, so higher demand, so possibly fewer odds and ends lying around rather than being scrapped

 

[Jellico]

The German navy has just come onto the market. The German merchant fleet has just been shared around. The US is building a stupid number of merchant ships for no apparent reason beyond port barreling. Scrap is cheap and plentiful.

 

[marathag]

some as coastal defense boats and some as hulks, maybe more than assumed as early dreadnoughts get sold as warships rather than fill these tasks. But most are worth more as scrap.

Some for utility roles
Kearsarge, as Crane Ship #1

and Illinois as a Barracks 'Prairie State'

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The German navy has just come onto the market. The German merchant fleet has just been shared around. The US is building a stupid number of merchant ships for no apparent reason beyond port barreling. Scrap is cheap and plentiful.

That is true, but it was true OTL. Here the US and Japan hang on to their pre dreads a couple years longer, much less the ACR and 1st gen Dreadnoughts they got rid of due to WNT, the RN hangs on to its 13.5" ships in reserve longer, the US doesn't break up 10 40 k ton Capital ships upon the ways, UK builds 4 G3s instead of 2 O3's, etc. Lots of factors, there's more than a half million tons less scrap than OTL, with a higher demand as well, that will increase prices over OTL

The huge number of merchant ships the US built during the period was the US partially finishing contracts from WWI, when there was a huge need for hulls to support the war and replace losses due to U-Boats. Just because the war ended did not mean the contracts did, the US bought more military equipment in 1919 than 1918 for that reason. Contracts were structured on the asumption that the war would last long than it did, better that than the reverse

 

[Dorknought]

When the pre-Dreadnoughts were laid down, they were thought to have a 25 year life. This quickly shortened to 20 years and the advent of Dreadnought seemed to render the life span of earlier battleships much shorter. Even without the war, by 1920 Dreadnought herself would have been flagship of the Reserve Fleet holding the 6th Battle Squadron (King Edward VII class) and 7th Battle Squadron (Lord Nelsons and Duncans). 1st to 5th Battle Squadrons would be all Dreadnoughts. The 8th Battle Squadron in 3rd Fleet would contain 8 Formidables/London classes. By the mid-20's all the pre-Dreadnoughts would have been replaced. Even before the war the RN saw that manpower was it's problem and these ships would just go earlier if there was a problem. The WNT just stopped the cycle by eliminating the ships needing replacement ie time expired pre-Dreads with new ships, the South Dakotas, Tosa, Owarii and the N3 being abandoned.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The world needs more oil jetties.

It is remarkable just how many odds and ends the RN had lying around the place.

Is that HMS Warrior?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Yes, complete with concrete deck, shed and lamp posts. She was a wreck when she came to Hartlepool in 1979 and a thing of beauty when she left in 1987. It was fascinating going through the docks over the years and seeing the changes made to the old girl as she was restored.

 

[Hood]

Britainis already scrapping them, along with first generation dreadnoughts.
Some will probably end up as depot or guard ships, though the latter more likely to go to first gen dreadnoughts.
Tbh the more interesting fate would be that of first and second generation dreadnoughts.
Regardless, the majority of both will be scrapped, guns probably kept for coastal batteries.
Something I've been considering lately is how Fisher had changed GBs naval strategy from world police to gigantic fleet ready to take on the HSF. by 1920 the HSF, and obviously the threat it posed was gone.
With WNT GB never had the ship numbers to return to having so many forces around the world, China Station coming to mind, which had previously been quite substantial.
Of course the cost question comes into issue, but it was generally older battleships given the job of foreign stations.
Of course other things must be accounted for, at Imperial Conferences one of the topics that came up with the dominions having navies and indeed we see that, especially with Australia and Canada.
Would pre dreadnoughts be good AA platforms?