Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond

A US that's more inwardly focused and suffering a double whammy of losing against Britain and possibly the CSA isn't going to be as able to prevent European intervention and influence the Americas, the Monroe Doctrine would likely be as good as dead in this scenario. Especially if France has greater success in Mexico.

Would Britain try and step up to prevent other European countries from gaining to much influence in this region? Germany/Prussia is an obvious contender here but I think Italy if they smelled an opportunity would try and throw their hat in the ring.

In the immediate aftermath of the war (sort of like Reconstruction OTL) I can say the US is going to be extremely introverted as certain political battles rip old alliances apart.

As for the European powers, with France trying to establish a toehold in Mexico, Britain already in the Caribbean, and Spain just trying to keep what it has, let's just say there's less room for competition.

Now for influence in Latin America... there's room for possibilities.
 
Good update as always, it seems like McClellan is once again being his own worst enemy because he can't either bother to swallow his pride and go along with the abolitionists or go down into peace talks no matter what, his famous indecision once again ensuring he's gonna have a tumultuous presidency to say the least, not a Andrew Johnson per se but still pretty close to that.

Well he doesn't want to see as being close to the abolitionists, and they hate him anyways. However, he's down for peace talks of a sort, but he really wants to be seen as "doing all I can do" before he has to resort to war again. However, his lack of political skills is about to trip him up again...

At least it's nice seeing Grant have the right attitude about things and hopefully will be the one to get a major victory to bolster the soldier's morale again, especially if the US Navy can trash the CSA one.

Grant, given another two years, could probably carve his way overland from Kentucky to the Gulf. However, he has the double whammy problem of an invigorated CSN Mississippi flotilla and a much, much weaker Union one. It does put him in a strategic bottleneck where he is hoping someone can take New Orleans from the sea while he smashes Bragg's army. However, his hands are tied by McClellan's armistice just as the brutal winter ended and the possibility to campaign opened up.

Needless to say, more time to rearm, recuperate, and regroup is good, but its also good for the Confederates. Which is bad.
 
A US that's more inwardly focused and suffering a double whammy of losing against Britain and possibly the CSA isn't going to be as able to prevent European intervention and influence the Americas, the Monroe Doctrine would likely be as good as dead in this scenario. Especially if France has greater success in Mexico.

Would Britain try and step up to prevent other European countries from gaining to much influence in this region? Germany/Prussia is an obvious contender here but I think Italy if they smelled an opportunity would try and throw their hat in the ring.
heck even otl the Monroe doctrine in the 19th century was largely policed by the RN. the real question here is is the US in the 19th Century a naval challenger to Chile. I certainly dont think they are getting Hawaii or sending fleets to Japan or China and probably not against Spain
 
heck even otl the Monroe doctrine in the 19th century was largely policed by the RN.

The Monroe Doctrine died on February 6th 1862 when Britain formally declared war on the United States.

Spain and France are currently doing what they did OTL and mucking about in the Americas again, but how far they'll go remains to be seen.

the real question here is is the US in the 19th Century a naval challenger to Chile. I certainly dont think they are getting Hawaii or sending fleets to Japan or China and probably not against Spain

If the US manages to rebuild its Pacific Squadron then it would be a competitor, but as Chile is about to be at war with Spain like OTL, we will certainly have to wait and see as Chile is about to get the next strongest ironclad fleet in the Americas...
 
Ulysses S. Grant
I figure McClellan will replace Grant eventually given he thinks Grant is nothing but a drunkard.
Gone was the mess of papers, reports, books and half finished meals which had littered the room when Lincoln had occupied it. So too were the inevitable messes of the man’s annoying sons. How he had ever gotten anything done was a mystery to McClellan.
Ah! Even though he's pretty much right, he still think the man is useless...
 

kham_coc

Banned
One question, as far as I understand it, Grant only started going by Ulysses after an election agent accidentally put that down as his name (it's actually his middle name).
So, is his name still Hiram Grant ITTL?
Looking into it a bit more, he mostly went by Ulysses all his life.
 
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I figure McClellan will replace Grant eventually given he thinks Grant is nothing but a drunkard.

This is something I'm actually not sure about. So far as I know Grant respected McClellan because of common service in Mexico, but I don't know if McClellan returned the favor.

Ah! Even though he's pretty much right, he still think the man is useless...

I've read enough of McClellan's letters and oh boy could I have said worse. To say he did not like Lincoln is an understatement. He genuinely believed OTL that there was a cabal in Washington led by secretary Stanton.

TTL, well, he has a little more reason to think so, but it's still not real.
 
One question, as far as I understand it, Grant only started going by Ulysses after an election agent accidentally put that down as his name (it's actually his middle name).
So, is his name still Hiram Grant ITTL?
Looking into it a bit more, he mostly went by Ulysses all his life.

That's correct. However, in the interest of eas for readers I figured using his better known historical name would be better. I can also spoil that after the war his political career is much more modest than his OTL career here.
 
With the war indemnities on top of loans and still having to pay an army which is still mobilized if currently inactive, the dollar should be at this point very close to trying to find out how many zeroes one can fit on a brand new banknote. On the other hand, with morale approaching rock bottom said army needs to be paid in full, with pay increases that at least somewhat counteract inflation in order to keep desertion at the current rate. I frankly don't see the US economy surviving a couple more years of war.
 
With the war indemnities on top of loans and still having to pay an army which is still mobilized if currently inactive, the dollar should be at this point very close to trying to find out how many zeroes one can fit on a brand new banknote. On the other hand, with morale approaching rock bottom said army needs to be paid in full, with pay increases that at least somewhat counteract inflation in order to keep desertion at the current rate. I frankly don't see the US economy surviving a couple more years of war.

The economy is pretty precarious to be sure. The years of eating itself to supply the war effort from 1862-64 were hard, and the fact the government had to effectively print money backed in the belief that the government would win was only slightly offset by peace with Britain. The war promises to go for another two years at least, and it has still sucked hundreds of thousands of men out of the working economy which hurts it quite a lot. The lack of fighting has done something to offset the enormous costs, but not enough as trade is only recovering by this point in 1865, the domestic market is still a mess, and the treasury is struggling to provide for all its needs.

Put in perspective, the US debt in 1860 was 64.8 million dollars (compared to government spending of 63.1 million per year give or take by 1860) but in just fighting the Confederacy OTL the debt grew from 64.8 million to 2.7 billion in 1865. In WiF the debt has grown by even more, roughly to 4.1 billion with the money spent fighting Britain on top of what was spent fighting the Confederacy.

Historically that debt alone took 30 years to pay off with a government that was fairly spendthrift with many national obligations, cutting defence, administration, and other expenses to the bone. How deep they can cut post war is really going to decide how quickly the debt will be paid off, if at all.
 
The economy is pretty precarious to be sure. The years of eating itself to supply the war effort from 1862-64 were hard, and the fact the government had to effectively print money backed in the belief that the government would win was only slightly offset by peace with Britain. The war promises to go for another two years at least, and it has still sucked hundreds of thousands of men out of the working economy which hurts it quite a lot. The lack of fighting has done something to offset the enormous costs, but not enough as trade is only recovering by this point in 1865, the domestic market is still a mess, and the treasury is struggling to provide for all its needs.

Put in perspective, the US debt in 1860 was 64.8 million dollars (compared to government spending of 63.1 million per year give or take by 1860) but in just fighting the Confederacy OTL the debt grew from 64.8 million to 2.7 billion in 1865. In WiF the debt has grown by even more, roughly to 4.1 billion with the money spent fighting Britain on top of what was spent fighting the Confederacy.

Historically that debt alone took 30 years to pay off with a government that was fairly spendthrift with many national obligations, cutting defence, administration, and other expenses to the bone. How deep they can cut post war is really going to decide how quickly the debt will be paid off, if at all.
How is the Greyback currently doing?
 
How is the Greyback currently doing?

Confederate currency is currently worth more than the greenback. Mostly because the Confederate Treasury speculated heavily on cotton bonds from 1862-65 which has paid off as fears of a renewed Northern blockade, the end of the glut of 1860, and general peace/war speculation has meant that the greyback is currently much more stable. Its helped that the Confederate economy is much less of a basket case thanks to no Union blockade, the ability to trade and draw on loans with Europe, and preferential deals with British merchants from the war.

The greenback has the ability to recover, but that will probably depend on peace.
 
Chapter 109: A Convention of the States
Chapter 109: A Convention of the States

“The greatest enemy will hide in the last place you would ever look.” ― Julius Caesar

“Hosting the delegations from the states in Louisville seemed the natural solution. The embattled Kentucky seemed natural as a ground for all parties to meet with neutral, and it was hoped, peaceful, intent. Permission was given for Confederate commissioners to cross the lines and 22 men from the Confederacy would meet with the 50 men from the Union to discuss an ‘amicable solution’ to the war. The delegates were hosted at, and made their deliberations in, the Galt House Hotel. The well appointed 60 room hotel gave plenty of space for the delegations to deliberate, mingle, and if necessary, avoid one another.

The delegations were led by Lazarus Powell of Kentucky for the United States, and Lucius Lamar of Mississippi for the Confederacy. Their parties were made up of eminent politicians from the loyal and seceding states. Confusion erupted when two delegations from Kentucky arrived at Louisville. One from the rebel government which had met in Bowling Green, and another representing the Union organized earlier that year in Sellersburg. In the spirit of conciliation, Powell admitted one man each from both parties to sit for their state…

In theory, McClellan’s plan to send delegates to meet in a convention to decide the war made sense. The loyal states and their delegates outnumbered the seceding states and their delegates, even with the split Kentucky delegation, by two to one. It was inconceivable to McClellan that anything other than a pre-ordained declaration of the reunion of the United States was to take place. So strongly did he believe this, he publicly stated he would abide by the conclusion of the Louisville Convention. “I feel the meetings at Louisville will finally bring an end to the discord in a definitive manner, and I will abide by a decision of these states as a matter of policy,” McClellan told Manton Marble of the New York World. He made statements to that effect to many other newspapers, laying the groundwork for his administration.

However, McClellan was operating under a delusion. His assumption was that he was sending subordinates or underlings to Louisville to act in accordance to his wishes, not independent political actors with their own agendas. His lack of political acumen shone through when he was convinced to appoint Powell as the leader for the United States. Though a staunch critic of Lincoln, and by extension a vocal defender of McClellan, Powell’s sympathies lay with the Southern states, and seeing the three years of military government in his home state he was increasingly convinced that the government in Washington did not have its best interests at heart.

McClellan also did not try to exert any influence over the various state delegations. While states that had not voted for McClellan sent men who could be considered hostile to the Confederacy, the delegations from New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Delaware and Illinois were men who could be described as nothing but Copperheads. Even Oregon managed to send delegates who were hostile to Washington, with the inclusion of John Whiteaker, former Democratic Governor of Oregon, and John Lane. Both men had hated Lincoln to be sure, but they had been utterly sympathetic to the South, and even advocates for the ‘Pacific Republic’ project which had petered out at the advent of the war, but once again picked up momentum as the Pacific legislatures felt utterly abandoned by Washington.

That McClellan and his administration made no effort to prevent the Copperheads from making a strong showing at the Louisville Convention has long been seen as proof for some that McClellan was fine with the outcome, so long as there was an outcome that helped his administration. However, even McClellan’s writings of the period show that he viewed the outcome as pre-ordained in his favor, and put more effort into army reform and researching men who had broken their oaths in 1861 rather than attempting to coral the delegations to his way of thinking…” - I Can Do It All: The Trials of George B. McClellan, Alfred White, 1992, Aurora Publishing

“When the participants met on the warm afternoon of July 15th 1865 there was some acrimony. Particularly as assertions of “traitor” and “tyrant” or “secessionist” and “despot” were lobbed by some delegates towards one another, all before any formal talks even began. The most vicious opening shots came between William P. Miles of South Carolina and Alexander Bullock of Massachusetts openly threatened to kill one another before third parties separated the two. Once mutual threats had subsided, the delegates sat down to business.

The opening discussion was, much to the surprise of many, the request for uninterrupted trade on the Mississippi River to resume during the armistice. The states along the river had felt the economic pinch of being unable to trade down the main waterway of North America, and the Illinois and Ohio delegations were both itching to resume that lucrative trade. Louisiana, Mississippi, Arkansas and Tennessee agreed with such sentiments and the first proper vote saw a recommendation that trade resume ‘in a limited, economic capacity’ was passed by a slim vote of 39 to 33 in favor of the recommendation being sent to Washington and Richmond.

For the first two days both sides sidestepped the issue of peace. There was a discussion of war reparations, with both sides claiming they deserved some reparation for the fighting. The Confederate delegates (minus Kentucky) voted unanimously against such, with the support of 20 of the 50 Northern delegates who believed that no money should change hands. With that consensus out of the way, the two sides superfluously ratified the armistice between the two warring parties with a near unanimous vote (the Massachusetts delegation being the only dissenters).

That, on July 18th, finally brought the matter of peace between the two warring sections to the front of the conflict. While both sides agreed there had to be peace, the matter of said peace remained to be seen.

It should have been obvious from the outset that the Southern delegations believed the peace to be made was one of separation, while the Northern delegates, mostly, believed peace was to be reunion. The problem for the Northern delegation was that it was divided on the matter of the terms of said reunion. McClellan had already promised a status quo of 1860, but for many Northerners that was not enough. The South would have to be punished, and a full 16 of the Northern delegates voiced their opinion that the status quo was unacceptable, which snarled any attempt at a united push by the Northern delegation. The leading men from much of New England were staunchly critical of the so-called “white peace” which McClellan proposed[1]. The north west and the Pacific however, had fewer such compunctions. While the ‘Unconditional Unionists’ from Missouri and West Virginia wanted Union or war, they were divided on the issue of slavery.

The West Virginia delegation wanted to ban slavery in all the United States, while the Missouri delegation simply wanted it outlawed in rebel states, but would settle for compensated emancipation in loyal states. Neither Radicals nor Democrats would agree to that, and behind the scenes the debates grew as fierce between supposed allies as they did between enemies. Wild rumors of “revolution” spread through some delegations, with the Democratic leaning members (and even some Republicans) feeling that the Radicals, once in power, wished to remake the United States into a nation which would be forced to accept the social terrors of miscegenation, labor rights, and an influx of freed slaves looking for jobs which would be at odds with white working men.

More cynically, the New York delegation under Bejnamin Wood[2] propagated the fears of this “social revolution” by telling the Union men that “if we let the South in now, eventually the Radicals will get their way and create a permanent voting machine of four millions of negros who will lock the Republican Party in the White House like Augustus in Rome, it will be the tyranny of the mob.

Naturally, this made many leery, as even with a Democrat currently in the White House, many reasoned it was not unthinkable that, with peace declared, the Republicans might gain the White House again in 1868, and it was far from unthinkable they would control either the Senate or the House in 1866. A push to end slavery once and for all in the rebel states was more than enough to make men fearful of some unforeseen outcome which might threaten the Democratic Party in the future[3].

A Kentucky Column led by Powell himself began fomenting unrest in the loyal delegates. With the support of Alexander Long, James Wall and William A. Wallace, he campaigned among the more Democratic leaning delegates, spreading rumors that pandered to the worst of Democratic race baiting. The unrest was enough to drive the two Pacific delegations into the arms of the Copperhead leaders at Louisville. This led to enough of a consensus that the delegates from these seven states made a secret oath that if the choice was between Union and abolition or disunion and slavery, they would vote for the latter…

Critically, there is no evidence existent that the Copperhead delegation ever made this known to their Confederate counterparts. By all accounts, many Confederates hoped that they would force the North to realize the futility of the struggle and leave to conduct a new round of talks elsewhere by back channels. It seemed that no one was prepared for the vote as it happened…

The culmination of the back room dealing came on July 20th when Powell forced a vote to declare once and for all whether the abolition of slavery was to be the cost of reunion as a prerequisite of peace. Unsurprisingly, the majority of Northern delegates voted for the more punitive peace, at 34 to 16, while the Southern delegates voted in lockstep against it. Powell demanded that a vote on “peace on the basis of reunion or separation be tabled before this body.” The ayes would vote for reunion, the nays for separation.

This was what many witnesses had been waiting for. Journalists and messengers rushed to get good seats to record the tally or to have boys run to the telegraph stations to send the news to their respective presses. Samuel Barlow, acting as McClellan’s representative, sat near the door, waiting to rush to inform his chief of the vote. The expectation was that the South would vote in lockstep against any reunion, while the Northern delegates would vote for reunion, and so the war would resume.

As Powell and Lamar called the roll of votes, the first reports back, done alphabetically, seemed to prove this process. The Southern delegates voted ‘nay’ while Northern delegates voted ‘aye’ and then the surprise came. When the delegates from California called the vote they declared ‘nay’ sending a sudden thunder of shocked conversation through the hall. Men leapt from their seats screaming “treason” while jeers were sent from the audience, some towards the North, others the South. As the votes continued, men began tallying in earnest, no longer seeing it as a done deal. Some murmured the vote was still assured, but worried messengers began to run in and out of the room. Tension mounted until finally the South Carolina delegates smugly voted ‘nay’ on the prospect of reunion.

To the horror of many Northern delegates and witnesses, the delegations from California, Oregon, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Illinois had all voted ‘nay’ on the prospect of reunion. They voted in lockstep with the Southern delegates, while the Kentucky vote was, unsurprisingly, split down the middle, leaving 39 in favor of disunion and 33 against. With President McClellan having publicly committed himself to abiding by the results of the convention, many openly cried out that the war was over.

Wild cheers went up from Southern delegates who rushed to embrace their Northern counterparts. Some in the audience also cheered, while others roared in anger, leading to several fist fights and an order to clear the room. Powell and Lamar both solemnly proclaimed that it was the consensus of the convention that the states agreed there should be a firm and lasting peace on the basis of separation of the two nations, and these results should be immediately communicated to their respective capitals…” - To Arms!: The Great American War, Sheldon Foote, University of Boston 1999.


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The Galt House Hotel where the fateful votes to end the Union were cast.

“Upon receipt of the news from Louisville, McClellan was said to have turned white as a ghost. “The only time I had ever seen the General so shocked was the discovery that Jackson was in his rear on the Rappahannock,” Williams would relate. An emergency sitting of the cabinet was set to attempt to decide what to do. McClellan was vexed, he had given his word many times, both in and out of print, that he would honor the wishes of the convention. With this thin majority, including several states which had voted for him pushing it through, could he actually go against its wishes?

The cabinet was split. Secretary of State Seymour, alongside secretaries Price, Astor and Cox were all vehement that the wishes of the convention be honored and “a delegation in favor of peace on the basis of separation be called” in some form. Only Butler and Cass both said he should scrap the agreement and continue the war. However, Astor and Price were both swift to point out that even the costs of maintaining the army were rising, while the navy itself was costing even more, especially with the construction of new ironclads to fight the rebel fleet.

The cost of this war is proving ruinous, with the needs of yet an unknown weight of years to bring the contest to an end leaving only an endless hole for the Treasury to stare into,” Astor would remorsefully inform his chief. Price vehemently agreed with this assessment. The costs of continuing the war far outweighed those of ending it. Butler said “national honor would forever be tarnished,” should they abide by “the will of the people” which seems to have set McClellan on edge.

While no firm consensus was established at the emergency meeting of the 21st, McClellan would spend a day in conference with his commanders and with Barlow. Grimly, Barlow would inform him that “the men who have placed you in this august office have decided that you are to lead them to peace not by the sword, but by the olive branch.” - I Can Do It All: The Trials of George B. McClellan, Alfred White, 1992, Aurora Publishing

“Though many blamed McClellan himself for eventually deciding to abide by the results of the Convention without considering war, that underscores the feelings of many who had experienced peace by the summer of 1865. Wives and widows wrote to the president, begging for him to send home husbands or sons who were in the ranks. Clergymen wrote imploring him to think of peace. Even Francis Blair would ask him to “abide by the will of the people” when the decision was made, no matter how slim the decision was.

It is perhaps hard to overstate the fact that McClellan was also surrounded by peace men who had every motive to send those wishing for peace his way. Worse, the fears of ‘social revolution’ were very much at the heart of the party which surrounded him…” - The Era of Hard Feelings, William Avery, Random House, 1989

With Congress not officially meeting again until December, legislative action would be on hold unless a special session were called. For now, no such session could be called and McClellan was alone with the decision. Finally, McClellan decided that his honor would not allow him to break his word that he had so proudly, and some would say foolishly, decided to abide by the convention. He would wait until the 25th before finally making his decision. By decree, he would declare that the war was over. In a speech to an assembled crowd on the grounds of the White House he would state:

It is with a solemn heart I declare I will stand by my word to the people of these United States, and will abide by the decision of the delegates at Louisville. The hand of Providence has led us to this day, whether we wish it or not. I shall communicate my decision with Richmond presently, and it is my hope that as brothers our two nations, formed in one bosom and perhaps temporarily estranged, shall in the spirit of brotherhood form a just and lasting peace. Let no more blood be shed on my account, let the people have peace, order and liberty to pursue happiness as they so desire…” - I Can Do It All: The Trials of George B. McClellan, Alfred White, 1992, Aurora Publishing

“When the decision was announced, vigils were held around the United States. In Boston a mock funeral was held where an American flag was solemnly placed in a coffin and marched past crowds dressed in black. It was symbolically buried, and the newspapers ran a mournful obituary for the nation. “Died, July 25th 1865, The United States of America, presiding physician, George B. McClellan, undertaker, Abraham Lincoln.”

The decision to bind the nation to separation was heard with jubilation in the South. Church bells rang, men and women danced in the streets, and soldiers on the lines cheered wildly. In some places men from both sides exchanged handshakes, while in others Southern offers of chitchat were met with stony silence, and occasionally bullets. Peace was not seen as universally wonderful. However, in many towns and streets there was rejoicing. Wives and children would finally see their husbands again, and men who had not set foot in homes since 1861 would at last return to their labors in the farms and factories.

Even so, it was with a sense of resignation that many soldiers settled into their tents. Many men now began to wonder when they would go home. “The war is over so far as I am concerned,” one soldier from Maine would say. “We fought the British and lost, and now our esteemed General has chosen peace. I wish for no more time in this wretched field and will return home to you as soon as is practical,” he wrote to his wife from the lines in Virginia.

A certain gloom has settled across the army,” Winfield Scott Hancock would write his family. “I am loath to criticize my commander in chief, but I do not agree with peace. There will not be a treaty, but merely an armistice of a generation.”

More grimly Frederick Douglas would write “On the masses seeking freedom, the gates of liberty are thrown shut for another generation. May God forgive this President, for I most assuredly will not.”- To Arms!: The Great American War, Sheldon Foote, University of Boston 1999.


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1] They mean that in quite a literal sense. For Radicals they view this as nothing more than an attempt to exert white slave owning supremacy on the whole of the United States. To them a peace based on the 1860 balance of power is nothing less than letting the Slave Power win.

2] Brother of Fernando Wood, just as awful. Both men were copperheads and racists to boot, and their own political aims are served by keeping the Democrats in power. Machine politics of New York was not nice I tell you.

3] I cannot drive home the point enough that this is all the product of petty partisanship generated by the war and sectional differences. Any effort to make a united front could have prevented this outcome, but alas there were no reasonable adults in Washington.
 
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And so the name of McClellan shall forevermore be a cursed name, for his part in this shall not be forgiven.

And it all began from a single carriage accident...
 
Now that could be an interesting thing to see realized.
Yeah, but with peace, it might end up petering out again. It depends on the Reconstruction period but given how this story goes, it might really happen.

Also, does this mean the US recognizes the Confederacy or is this peace more like a ceasefire similar to North and South Korea?

I also realized that the Louisville Convention has established a precedent that if the states want to secede, they can just do that in another convention of the states. With how the war turned out badly for the Union, such an idea can materialize to avoid a ruinous war when they can have peace but still work together. I fear we won't have a United States from coast to coast in the future but more a collection of nations where the continental US is located.
 
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Yeah, but with peace, it might end up petering out again. It depends on the Reconstruction period but given how this story goes, it might really happen.

Also, does this mean the US recognizes the Confederacy or is this peace more like a ceasefire similar to North and South Korea?

I also realized that the Louisville Convention has established a precedent that if the states want to secede, they can just do that in another convention of the states. With how the war turned out badly for the Union, such an idea can materialize to avoid a ruinous war when they can have peace but still work together. I fear we won't have a United States from coast to coast in the future but more a collection of nations where the continental US is located.
I do recall EC saying the map of North America would be "drastically changed"...
 
Once again McClellan proving that he can fumble even something like a peace conference.

But hey, the author said he will be remembered as a mid president so at least he(or rather, his cabinet) will do something right, right?
 
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