Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond

[EnglishCanuck]

Geographically, the Taiping is smaller...

OTOH, the best comparison the US Civil War and the Taiping rebellion that I've heard is that if the Union had killed *EVERY* white person (Man, Woman and child) in the Confederacy to put down the Confederate rebellion, they would have killed about 1/3 of the minimum estimate for deaths in the Taiping Rebelion. OTOH, If the Union had gone on to do the same in Canada *and* the UK, they would have been at the middle for the estimates of the deaths in the Taiping Rebelion.

Anyone seen any attempts at a Taiping victory scenario?

Smaller geographically, but certainly not in scale!

Though to be fair, the sheer scale of the devastation was partially from the lawlessness that ensued from the Taiping overcoming local authorities, the general weakness of the Qing central government, and the dislocation caused not only by the civil war(s), but also the Franco-British assaults on the Qing during the wars taking place concurrently. The dislocation from the Civil War, while terrible, were not nearly so complete. The lawlessness in areas of the Confederacy were not nearly as lethal and the Union were much more competent administrators in their reassertion of control rather than the Qing who used wholesale massacre.

I have not seen any attempts at a Taiping victory scenario personally, but it would be an interesting scenario to imagine. Of course, it's not the only one. A China less weak to European encroachment is very interesting in the latter half of the 19th century for all the havoc it plays on many powers Asian ambitions.

 

[Pantegral]

Anyone seen any attempts at a Taiping victory scenario?

I have not seen any attempts at a Taiping victory scenario personally, but it would be an interesting scenario to imagine. Of course, it's not the only one. A China less weak to European encroachment is very interesting in the latter half of the 19th century for all the havoc it plays on many powers Asian ambitions.

There's only one (excellent) oneshot that I know of, from the regrettably-dead An Examination of Extra-Universal Systems of Government thread: the Heavenly Union of Peasants and Workers (full @rvbomally map here).

 

[EnglishCanuck]

There's only one (excellent) oneshot that I know of, from the regrettably-dead An Examination of Extra-Universal Systems of Government thread: the Heavenly Union of Peasants and Workers (full @rvbomally map here).

Fascinating stuff there! A really interesting examination of its growth and hypothetical changes!

rvbomally does amazing work with the map as always.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Chapter 80: 1863 A Year in Review​

Europe:

January 22nd: The January Uprising begins in Poland. Responding to threats of conscription, Polish nationalists rise up against Russian authorities in Warsaw. The rebellion will soon spread to neighboring Lithuania.

March 30th: Prince George of Denmark is elected as King of the Helenes. He is to take power in Athens in October. The choice proves amenable to the British government which enters into negotiations to divest themselves of the Ionian Islands and restore them to Greek rule in response, in time for George’s coronation.

October 29th: The Resolutions of the Geneva Convention are ratified, creating the International Red Cross.

November 18th: Mere days after the death of King Frederick of Denmark, King Christian IX is compelled to sign the November Constitution by the parliament of Denmark. This new document declares that Schleswig is part of Denmark. This is decried by the German Confederation which declares the document is in violation of the London Protocol of 1852, German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck begins to press for war. The Danish move however is supported by King Charles XV of Sweden-Norway who privately offers his support to Christian. He will prevail upon London and St. Petersburg to support the Danish position.

Asia:

March 1863: Emperor Komei issues the order to expel the barbarians. The shogunate has no intention of enforcing the order, but anti-shogun samurai and the Satsuma and Chosu domains begin killing westerners and firing on western ships as a result. The greatest attacks will come in the straits of Shimonoseki. The waterways will be hazardous to foreign shipping until well into 1864.

April 14th - The Treaty of Hue is signed by France and the Empire of Vietnam, granting considerable trading concessions to the French Empire and opening the Mekong Delta to French traders and missionaries.

August 18-19th: British warships bombard Kagoshima in response to the Nagumi Incident of the previous year. The battle is a victory for the British fleet, and compels the Satsuma domain to pay compensation for the death of Charles Lennox.

September 1863: The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom has been driven back to its capital at Nanjing, and forces loyal to the Qing Dynasty have begun to lay siege to the city:

“The most successful of the Provincial Armies was the Anqing Army, built by Zeng Guofan from his provincial stronghold in Hunan. Recruited from local militias, ostensibly for imperial service, the army had been built on ties of personal loyalty and family, making it unquestionably loyal to Zeng and his brothers who all commanded various arms of his new army. Starting from a strength of 17,000 it would eventually compose over 350,000 men with modern firearms and artillery…

Guofan’s greatest initial success was the recapture of Anqing from the Taiping forces in a brutal siege lasting much of 1862. In doing so, he would seize the vital Yangtze River, and create a base of operations from which to operate against the very heart of the Heavenly Kingdom. It was also where his army would earn its proper name as the Anqing Army, and do much of the training and recruitment that would drive it forward...

By June, the Taiping forces had lost control of the north bank of the Yangtze River, thus leaving the Heavenly capital in Nanjing isolated. The fall of Suzhou and the control of Lake Tai further tightens the noose…

Zeng had, initially, little interest in Western ways of war or technology. It is an oft supposed idea that his soldiers were better armed than their contemporaries, but this is generally untrue. Pikes, swords and bows outnumbered even arquebus in the ranks of the Anqing Army in 1861, and it was not until 1863 that Zeng had begun dabbling in equipping his men with foreign rifles. Even then, it was meant as a way to ensure the 5,000 men of the Ever Victorious Army under Townsend were not able to have a monopoly on weapons.

In his first efforts to equip his Anqing soldiers with modern weapons, he focused almost exclusively on steamboats with modern guns. He had learned how useful vessels which could go against the current might be when controlling the river around Anqing, and in doing so felt confident that it could also unsettle the Taiping defenders at Nanjing. The size and power of Western weapons, he felt, was primarily based on terror, not from any superior effectiveness of their technology. Early experiments with gunboats in the Siege of Nanjing soon convinced him otherwise, but he was, to his youngest brother Guobao, maddeningly slow to adopt the more powerful Western artillery.

His troops however, did begin to accept rifles from merchants supplying French Minié rifles through Shanghai, arming 10,000 men with the modern guns by March of 1864…” - Twilight of Dynasties: The 19th Century Crisis of China, Sylvester Platt, Oxford Publishing, 2012

North America:

March 15th: French forces lay siege to Puebla

“The failure at Puebla the previous year had led to a change in command of the French army in Mexico. Alongside significant reinforcement, General Bazaine would arrive to relieve General Lorencez of command. He brought with him a further 20,000 French troops, modern siege guns, and a far better plan for the subjugation of Mexico…

Having re-established his forces into two divisions, one under General Elie Forey and the second under Félix Douay, Bazaine marched his forces, now 26,000 strong, inland against the prepared Mexican positions at Puebla…

Mexican forces had not been idle, and between May of 1862 and March of 1863, the soldiers under the command of Jesús Ortega. Though he had been criticized for cowardice the previous June, having failed to drive the French to the sea from their encampment at Orizaba at the Battle of Cerro del Borrego, he had instead turned considerable attention to setting up the defences of Puebla. He had amassed twenty heavy cannons and a dozen mountain howitzers to hold the city. To do so he also had 28,000 men from the regular army and local militia enrolled alongside him. Puebla was the road to Mexico City, and if it fell, so too would the capital…

One of the most notable moments of the siege would see the most famous day in the history of the French Foreign Legion. Leading a convoy to supply the siege train, Captain Jean Danjou would find his 65 men besieged at the hacienda of Camarón on April 30th. Fighting for 10 hours, the men of the Legion would hold off over 1,200 Mexican troops, inflicting 190 dead and 300 wounded while in the end, having only two men unwounded among the other 17 wounded survivors. Upon surrendering, the Mexicans would exclaim about them, "These are not men! They are demons!"

...By May 16th the defenders had been worn down. Desertion had become rife within the army as rations ran out, heavy casualties had been suffered, and many chafed under Ortega’s orders. Ammunition was running low, and disease was rife. On the morning of the 17th a series of blasts rocked the town, Ortega had ordered his remaining powder stores destroyed, and released the militia from service. He was prepared to negotiate the surrender of the city. The French quickly complied with the request for negotiations, and by the afternoon they had accepted the surrender.

The siege of Puebla, 1863​

In surrendering the city Ortega gave into French care 12,000 prisoners, including 1,500 officers and 25 generals. It was the cream of the regular Mexican army. Of these, 5,000 promptly switched sides, joining Leonardo Marquez’s growing “Imperial” forces that aided the French. A further number were employed in constructing a railroad which was to connect Puebla to Veracruz, while the officers were, after some consideration, imprisoned, and marched to Veracruz where they were shipped off to a comfortable captivity in Brest. Ortega and many of his subordinates, including Mariano Escobedo would not return to Mexico until the 1870s.

However, some men did manage to escape their captors, notable among them was Porifio Diaz…

Upon receiving news of the fall of Puebla, Juarez began preparations to flee the capital. Congress gave Juarez emergency powers “for the duration” and emptied the treasury and ended its final session on May 31st. Soon a flood of Republican officials and officers were moving north to San Luis Potosi…

Bazaine entered the city on June 10th, and amid the fete of a nervous population, began the work necessary to establish the imperial dream in Mexico. With other notable citizens, he established a Junta Superior who were then tasked with electing a triumvirate that was to serve as the executive of the new government. The three elected were Juan Almonte, Archbishop Labastida, and Jose Mariano Salas, all firm conservatives. The Junta was also to choose 215 Mexican citizens who together with the Junta Superior were to constitute an Assembly of Notables that was to decide upon the form of government. On the 11th of July the Assembly published its resolutions that Mexico was to be a constitutional monarchy and that Ferdinand Maximilian of Habsburg was to be invited to accept the Mexican throne…

Receiving the representatives from Mexico at Trieste on October 3rd 1863, Maximilian Hapsburg, heard their invitation to accept the Mexican throne. He had already received assurances that the country would welcome him, but he did request a plebiscite to be held to cement legitimacy to his rule. Those details aside, Maximilian consented to accept the Mexican crown…” – The Mexican Adventure, Marc Braudel, 1986

Maximillian receives the Mexican delegation at Trieste​

June 20th: West Virginia is admitted as the 35th state.

August 16th: After increasing tensions within the northern Cibao regions of the Dominican, and baseless but feared rumours that the islands many black denizens may be shipped to Cuba and Puerto Rico as slaves, anti-Spanish feeling in the Dominican Republic boils over. Spanish rule on the island had become increasingly unpopular with high tariffs and capricious seizures of goods by the Spanish military. On August 16th, Santiago Rodriguez leads a raid on Spanish forces at Capotillo. By September, most of the Cibao region is in revolt against Spanish rule and spreading across the island.

South America:

April 19th: General Venancio Flores, with the support of Argentina, invades Uruguay to overthrow the ruling Blanco Party and establish himself as president of Uruguay. The Blanco's, allies of Paraguay, appeal to Paraguayan President, Franciso Lopez on their behalf. Lopez demands an explanation from the Argentine government, but the diplomatic notes are ignored. Paraguay begins preparing its military to support her allies.

June: The Empire of Brazil severs diplomatic relations with the British Empire over the ongoing dispute over British ships in Brazilian waters during the Christie Question.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

And with that we 95% come to the close of 1863, with Chapter 81 serving as the real bookend and opener to 1864. As before, I now throw open the new year to questions and wonder what people would like to see as I open up one of the most tumultuous years in North America and we careen towards the pivotal election of 1864.

 

[DAv]

A good overview of what's happening in other places around the world there. Seems like France is doing much better than OTL for Mexico, although the Taiping are on their last legs. Has Britain pulled back in anyway from other places in the world to focus on the US? Seems like they're still active enough in Asia and Japan at least.

 

[Icedaemon]

Sun never sets on the Hapsburg chin hype?

 

[SenatorChickpea]

Something about that extract on Zeng...

How to put this?

Is he going to act on a certain... suggestion... made by his brother in this timeline?

 

[EnglishCanuck]

A good overview of what's happening in other places around the world there. Seems like France is doing much better than OTL for Mexico, although the Taiping are on their last legs. Has Britain pulled back in anyway from other places in the world to focus on the US? Seems like they're still active enough in Asia and Japan at least.

Some changes, but a lot of what was, essentially, OTL in Mexico, Japan and China. Though you may pick up subtle hints of what's changing.

As for Britain, they actually commit less to crushing the Taiping here, with a battalion withdrawn from China and Ward still alive, much of the work in driving the Taiping away from Shanghai has fallen to the French and the Ever Victorious Army. The Japanese situation is much as OTL, but the British are intending to come back and really give it to them. The biggest withdrawals have been in New Zealand where the Maori are getting wise to the fact that they might have a bit more leverage...

Overall though, while the British commitments in Asia and the Pacific are a bit stretched, they were not too deeply tied down in any campaign in OTL 1862 that they would have found themselves overstretched. Their forces had grown overall and after the furious campaigns in the 1850s, they had pretty well achieved most of their strategic objectives in the region. Doesn't mean trouble won't crop up later of course...

Sun never sets on the Hapsburg chin hype?

Ironically, everything I've written thus far is almost point for point OTL of the French invasion of Mexico in 1863. In OTL, well into 1865, you might be forgiven for thinking the Mexican Republic was doomed because the French were doing just that well. They ended up controlling every major port, much of the vast interior, and the forces of Juarez were pushed to the extreme north and south, with only scattered guerilla resistance remaining. It was only the end of the Civil War and serious American diplomatic and material intervention - to the point where the US army "lost" tens of thousands of rifles and uniforms on the banks of the Rio Grande - which turned things around. In 1864 OTL many prominent liberal generals who were defeated simply switched sides because they felt the fall of the republic was inevitable. Better to take your chances with a new government than fight to the death for a lost cause.

The only major difference I've written out here is that many major generals who actually escaped French captivity OTL have been put on a steamer and sent to a comfortable exile in France, with a notable exception. Many of the generals who did escape captivity OTL were instrumental in driving the French back. So TTL we shall see what happens then...

Something about that extract on Zeng...

How to put this?

Is he going to act on a certain... suggestion... made by his brother in this timeline?

Hmm well in the TL's opening I did say:

It has often been said that the 1860s were a decade on which the ideologies of a new age were hammered out upon the anvil of war

And historically the Taiping did awaken an anti-Manchu feeling, while many provincial observers at the time and even outsiders did note that with all the chaos (famine and flooding, foreign invasion) and rebellion (the Taiping Revolt was one of three major simultaneous rebellions) that it did indeed seem that the Qing had lost the Mandate of Heaven. I would say its not implausible that someone might end up leaning the other way in seeing the court in Beijing being, how should I say, unworthy of the task of reforming the Empire? As to the who, well I couldn't possibly say!

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Chapter 81: Rumours of Peace​

“These people who govern us should not be so carried away by their own political power that they turn away from peace, but neither could they accept a peace that is dishonorable.” – Cicero

“With the myriad of negotiations between the Tsar’s representatives in London, the American delegation in Hamburg and the British government, and all the waiting involved in the months it took to arrange conversations between the two sides with a two week trip across the Atlantic, a firm agreement on negotiations had not been arrived at until well into December, with the British agreeing to meet with the Americans and Lincoln and Seward sending orders and representatives from the United States under a flag of truce to meet with the British.

The USS Kearsage sailed from New York on December 16th under a flag of truce bearing Winfield Scott, a veteran of numerous negotiations with the British, Rear Admiral Joseph Smith, Robert C. Schenck and Caleb Cushing. They carried dispatches for the delegation in Hamburg, informing Charles Adams he was to lead the negotiations and he was to be assisted by Seward’s agent in Thurlow Weed. Arriving in Hamburg on the 27th of December, they sent through the Tsar’s officials, an intention to meet. Weeks followed as the British both dithered on the request from Lincoln for an armistice and the niceties of selecting a place of negotiations were mooted back and forth.

Ghent in Belgium, the site of the treaty of the last war between Britain and the United States, was suggested. This seemed amenable to all sides at first, but the distance between it and Hamburg as well as King Leopold’s seemingly pro-British leanings caused the Americans to back away at the last instant. Napoleon III offered Paris or Cherbourg, but both the British and Americans turned this down. King Wilhelm of Prussia, through his foreign minister Otto von Bismarck offered to host in Hamburg or Berlin, but the British distaste for their rapport with Russia on the Polish question destroyed that possibility and the Tsar’s initial offer of St. Petersburg was also turned down by the British. That left the matter hanging until late January when King William of the Netherlands offered to host the negotiations. Though the American delegation was wary of the burgeoning Confederate mercantile and diplomatic community in Amsterdam, they were under increasing pressure from Seward to begin the process after “six months of negotiations to commence negotiations” which drew the two sides to settle on the city of Rotterdam.

Rotterdam, a city of over 100,000 in 1864, was located on the Nieuwe Maas waterway with its busy port and good telegraphic connection with London and Hamburg, provided accommodation to neutral shipping and good communications for each side. It was agreed, and the two delegations were hosted at the somewhat ironically named Victoria Hotel, a popular destination for travellers and one of the few buildings in the city which could accommodate both parties and their staffs. With the location agreed upon, both sides would formally meet for their first exchange on February 17th 1864. With minor discussions about the sudden war between Prussia, Austria and Denmark and Sweden and the ongoing conflict in Mexico being exchanged as opening pleasantries, both sides shortly got down to business.

The Hotel Victoria in Rotterdam​

The American delegation, led by Adams, was the best which could be reasonably assembled within the talents of North America and Europe and those who had a ‘finger’ on the pulse of Britain and the political situation in the United States. It had explicit orders from Lincoln to find a ‘just and honorable peace’ but with certain conditions. Under no circumstances were they to allow recognition of the Confederate States to be an article prerequisite for peace, they were to use the British letter from December 1861 as their basis for terms, and they were to find a way to end up at a status quo antebellum. If possible, he was to secure an end of the blockade as a sign of good faith for continued negotiations.

The British delegation was arranged from within the ranks of the Liberal Party. Led by George Villiers, the Earl of Clarendon, a confidant of Palmerston and former Secretary of State of Foreign Affairs. Clarendon had served in numerous foreign embassies and had been instrumental in keeping close relations with France and the shaping of the Congress of Paris in the aftermath of the Russian War. Under him was George Robinson, Earl de Grey and Ripon, he was to serve as the junior negotiator. In terms of law they were ably assisted by lawyer Montague Bernard. Representing the military was Commodore Lord John Hay, recently returned from China and whose connections with the Liberal Party made him a shoe in for a seat at the table and General Sir Edward Lugard who had extensive experience with the fighting in Asia during the Anglo-Afghan Wars and the Indian Mutiny. The peoples of Canada were represented by Joseph Howe of Nova Scotia and John Ross of the Province of Canada.

Clarendon had specific instructions that he was to prosecute as aggressive a policy as possible. Though Lord Russell had sent him a confidential memo not to push the Americans so hard that they would walk out of the peace talks. However, he was to follow the directives laid out by the War Cabinet as far as possible…

The Conference began with the Americans presenting their initial terms, laid out as such:

• The United States would issue a formal apology to Her Majesty's government for the events leading to the war
• The United States would agree to return all territory occupied by the forces of the United States Government in exchange for territory occupied by Her Majesty's forces
• The United States would agree to pay an indemnity for damages done before the outbreak of war in February 1862

This was the mildest treaty they could hope for. Unsurprisingly, the British rejected it out of hand, and instead presented their counteroffer:

• The United States would issue a formal apology to Her Majesty's government for the events leading to the war
• The United States would agree to return all territory occupied by the forces of the United States Government
• The United States would agree to an indemnity for the damages suffered by Her Majesty's subjects of no less than 100 million pounds sterling
• The United States would forfeit any claims to the San Juan Islands
• The United States would relinquish the Washington Territory, Aroostook County and Washington County in Maine, the village of Rouse’s Point in New York as well as several islands in the St. Lawrence

These measures were so punitive Charles Adams Jr. stormed to his feet and proclaimed that “Her Majesty’s Government seems to be more interested in crushing the United States of America rather than making peace!” With this altercation, Winfield Scott suggested the two sides take an early break, which was agreed to by Villiers.

In talks within the American delegation, Admiral Smith expressed distress that in the British offer not one single issue regarding the American blockade of the Southern ports, so important in the 1861 December Ultimatum, was not addressed. Scott calmly pointed out that “so long as the Royal Navy maintains such a presence in our waters, the blockade of the South is an irrelevancy” and Schenck took this one step further, inferring that the British did not believe that the North would again be able to blockade the South.

Charles Adams Sr. pushed the subject away from military matters and made the relevant point that the British demands, as presented, could not be accepted. While the issue of apology was already decided upon, the point of an indemnity might need to be changed, while the Union had best use its conquests in Canada as bargaining chips. The fact that the British occupied a swathe of New York State, Oregon Territory, California, and most all of Maine meant that the territory in Canada was very near worthless as a negotiating position. Even with Farragut’s morale boosting victory in September of the previous year, the blockade remained in force. It was decided that the best option was to stall on the finer points of the apology, negotiations on the indemnity and a further push for the status quo, until events could be made clear to Washington…

The first draft of the treaty had the hands of Palmerston all over it. He had pushed for a harder war in 1855 with Russia, and for a harsh peace on China in 1860. While most of his colleagues in the War Cabinet were for harsh terms, only Somerset seems to have really believed there was any chance of getting the Americans to agree to such a harsh treaty. Privately Russel would write “only Palmerston seems to ready to snip such diverse pieces from the United States, but maintains the recognition of the South as a separate issue.” It was that very instance of a separate issue on the Confederacy which would place Palmerston in hot water…” – The World on Fire: The Third Anlgo-American War, Ashley Grimes, 2009, Random House Publishing

“The first draft of the British proposal arrived in Washington in March 1864. Lincoln was said to have “alternated between shock and anger at the harshness of the British terms” and even Seward was briefly tempted to send orders for negotiations to be broken off. However, each man, and the cabinet, was well aware that a treaty with the British had to be signed and confirmed before November of 1864, preferably by the summer when the campaigning against the South could be fought in earnest.

Cabinet meetings, first an emergency session on the 4th, and then sessions on the 8th and 9th could arrive at no firm conclusion. Eventually Lincoln was pained to declare “It may be terrible to lose land in such a staunch Republican state, but to sacrifice a tooth to save the whole mouth, I am prepared to lose the tooth.” It was a painful conversation, but a vote by the cabinet brought a near unanimous vote (Welles abstained) on the matter that they would authorize the negotiators in Rotterdam to sacrifice the Aroostook County in Maine if necessary to secure peace…

Upon being confidentially informed of the news, Vice President Hannibal Hamlin would resign from the administration…” – Snakes and Ladders: The Lincoln Administration and America’s Darkest Hour, Hillary Saunders, Scattershot Publishing, 2003

“The news of the sacrifice of Aroostook reached the delegations in Rotterdam on March 25th. In that time the Americans had reiterated their first stance, while the British delegation put forward a softer stance. While maintaining their insistence on the subject of the apology, the indemnity, and the status of the San Juan Islands, they dropped their claims on territory in New York State, the Oregon Territory and announced a willingness to discuss the Maine boundary.

With a softer British stance, and more room to maneuver, the American delegates pushed on the subject of an armistice. This was agreed to on April 4th 1864, and the news would be sped across the Atlantic to the armies in the field. However, Britain maintained it would remain in effect only for three months, lest negotiations were merely a stalling tactic…” – To Arms!: The Great American War, Sheldon Foote, University of Boston 1999.

“While the fighting on the seas continued, the negotiations at Rotterdam remained contentious into April and May. Both sides were aware that the armistice could be revoked at any time, and neither side seemed truly willing to begin hostilities again. However, the Maine boundary and the indemnity remained the largest sticking point.

Though Washington was prepared to accept the loss of Aroostook, the delegates fought hard to retain it nonetheless. Scott was insistent that the Webster-Ashburton Treaty settled the matter, and it remained invaluable for both sides. However, the pressure from London on the matter was firm and Palmerston, who had called the treaty “the Ashburton Surrender to Americans” was firm in seeing some of its territorial restrictions overturned. “The entry to Canada has been barred and threatened by United States possession of that territory for almost a century. It would be suicide for the peoples of Canada to consent to a dagger at their throat for another,” General Lugard would relate to the opposite party.

This issue was made more difficult for both sides by Canadian influence. Both John Ross and Joseph Howe of the Canadian delegation had a vested interest in the cession of portions of Maine. Ross because of his new investment opportunities in the ongoing St. Andrews and Quebec Railroad and Howe because of his own interest in connecting Canada and Halifax by rail. Both men were using their own contacts in London who in turn pressured the government for obtaining that territory. The investors who hoped for an all-weather Canadian route were backed by the military opinion of the day that Canada must be connected by rail to the sea. That Maine was presently so close to this route was intolerable, and ‘a few shavings of American territory’ were worth the cost of Canada’s continued security.

These pressures all combined with the hawkish mood in the War Cabinet which pushed forward the British negotiating position. As such, they were firm on their points of the treaty, only slightly amending the demanded indemnity to 66 million pounds sterling at the insistence of Gladstone who had done a rough tabulation of direct costs associated with the war. Even with these slightly less odious positions, the American delegation bulled on with their negotiations, hoping to stall for some victory which would keep the nation’s spirits up and dull the British demands…” – The World on Fire: The Third Anlgo-American War, Ashley Grimes, 2009, Random House Publishing

 

[EnglishCanuck]

And so we begin 1864, and here's some fodder for what people might expect for any future "Treaty of Rotterdam" to look like which may lead to a just and honorable peace between the United States and the United Kingdom.

 

[Young Augustus5598]

I have to say, I love this chapter for show casing both sides positions, but without major victories, giving up territory in Maine and agreeing to indemnities is going to be a horrendous blow to Lincoln’s chances for the 1864 election

 

[EnglishCanuck]

I have to say, I love this chapter for show casing both sides positions, but without major victories, giving up territory in Maine and agreeing to indemnities is going to be a horrendous blow to Lincoln’s chances for the 1864 election

Truthfully, it was one of my favorite to write so far since the early diplomatic crisis ones just for having to sit down and think about the competing needs and desires of the two sides at the peace table. Its fascinating too when you have to consider that the Union needs peace, but Britain has the option of just squatting on their gains and letting the Union stew until November 1864 when a more amenable government might come around.

 

[GDIS Pathe]

Peace between the US and Britain seems likely, Lincoln knows the US can’t afford to stall. Which means the pressure will be on when it comes to Thomas, Grant, and Hancock(if/when he moves South) to for some smashing victory to save Lincoln’s re-election

 

[The Gunslinger]

No love for the northwestern corner of Lake Superior in the Ashburton surrender, eh?

It's kind of a funny peace treaty because neither side has anything of value.

Lincoln is going to be pushing for a major victory over the south, but he might push his guys too hard to produce one and it could backfire... only time will tell.

 

[Khaine]

Really hoping we'll see the peace talks fall trough, a continued conflict in the North might push the Union past it's breaking point.

 

[Admiral Spaun]

Really hoping we'll see the peace talks fall trough, a continued conflict in the North might push the Union past it's breaking point.

I don't know why you'd hope for that....

 

[Khaine]

I don't know why you'd hope for that....

Simply because it seems like the most fun resolution of the conflict.
Not like the Slavers will be able to survive on slavery that long anyway, despite the resistance I bet it will end up collapsing within a few decades anyway.

 

[NoThymeToulouse]

Simply because it seems like the most fun resolution of the conflict.
Not like the Slavers will be able to survive on slavery that long anyway, despite the resistance I bet it will end up collapsing within a few decades anyway.

'Only' a few decades of course

 

[Vabasion]

The war will go on.