Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
- Thread starter sts-200
- Start date
Honestly I can't see it. The Channel Fleet was a minimum of half a dozen pre-Dreadnoughts and a mass of cruisers and destroyers and that's going to be reinforced in preparation for troops being shuffled across to the continent.
If Souchon was just trying to sneak through then he might be able to make it, but it's stated he wants to do something more ambitious. Given the correlation of forces that ends in him being sunk.
I think it's more likely that Germany is going to experience an even greater (relative to OTL) agonising pain in the back as the knife goes in (or at least that's how German Nationalist's will remember it)
If War hasn't broken out yet how much of the second and third fleets will be ready for combat. Many ships have very old munitions that have spoiled and major engine fouling.
While Goeben might struggle to sail through the channel it might cause sufficient damages that the Royal Navy will consider if preadreadnoughts have an actual role in this war. That could have interesting effects.
OTL Churchill and Prince Louis kept the reserve fleet together after the annual fleet training exercises had been completed (to prevent the crews from 'dispersing') and before things came to a head had dispersed the home fleet to its wartime station in Scapa Flo from what was considered to be vulnerable southern ports
It was watching the home fleet headout into the channel from shore Churchill made his 'Castles of Steel' observation
I suspect therefore that having just carried out their annual training exercises they would be in relatively good shape.
hmm Trieste as a WW1 Stalingrad?Or land troups along the southern Aidriatic provinces of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to like up with the Serbs. Of course if Churchill gets involved in the planning of this it could end up as a landing at/near Trieste with the idea of a rapid advance on Vienna to knock the Austrians out of the war in one easy advance (what's the worst that could happen.
I looked in detail at the condition of the reserves sometime ago.
I went through various accounts and I came across a source that suggested two battlesquadons of the channel fleet went on patrol together in the Channel on a given date. 8 Battleships sailed that day (the battlesquadrons were 7 and 8 ships large at that date).
HMS Canopus is the third fleet ship whose condition during the early phases of ww1 is the easiest to read about.
Wow!
What a great set of observations and deductions from all contributors so far.
I can't see any guesses that aren't reasonable given the circumstances I've set out ... so I'll leave you all wondering. Hopefully a few answers and hints below.
As various people have pointed out, a non-belligerent Ottoman Empire is a huge change, both in the short and long terms. Undoubtedly the Near and Middle East today would look very different (not that I'll be taking the story that far).
This is primarily a sea story, so I'll be focusing on the naval implications of what's going on, although of course they will be affected by events in the wider world.
What a great set of observations and deductions from all contributors so far.
I can't see any guesses that aren't reasonable given the circumstances I've set out ... so I'll leave you all wondering. Hopefully a few answers and hints below.
As various people have pointed out, a non-belligerent Ottoman Empire is a huge change, both in the short and long terms. Undoubtedly the Near and Middle East today would look very different (not that I'll be taking the story that far).
This is primarily a sea story, so I'll be focusing on the naval implications of what's going on, although of course they will be affected by events in the wider world.
They do indeed have a British guarantee ... although of course quite what that means is likely be the subject of much debate.
Think more along the lines of Munich, or perhaps the Balfour Declaration ... it's something expedient everyone can agree on ... then they go off and do whatever they want.
I've perhaps been a bit sloppy in the wording while seeking to keep it light-hearted.
There is certainly no intention of cancelling any of the capitulations. The Ottomans can go on ruling what they already rule ... and in return the generous British have given them the two battleships they've already paid for!
Erin/Reshadieh was suspend for several months during construction, so it's not difficult to image her being completed a little earlier, if Anglo-Turkish relations are just a little better during/after the Balkan War.
Oh don't worry, Churchill will always do right thing...Or land troups along the southern Aidriatic provinces of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to like up with the Serbs. Of course if Churchill gets involved in the planning of this it could end up as a landing at/near Trieste with the idea of a rapid advance on Vienna to knock the Austrians out of the war in one easy advance (what's the worst that could happen
... having tried all the other options first.
Only adds to the appeal...Now that naming must have really gone down well in France.
No worse than Cressy, Aboukir or Ramilles, and not forgetting HMS Lord Nelson, Collingwood, St Vincent ... and the Fleet flagship Iron Duke.
To be fair, there was some evidence of tact. The next ship of the very best name wasn't completed until 1945.
Deleted member 94680
Even a declaration that can be rowed back on, given provocation, is far better than outright hostility. One would assume some sort of “pro-Turk” faction has an element of sway in government circles ITTL, given the declaration. The Sublime Porte should do all it can to facilitate that element remaining in a position of influence.
What will an Ottoman neutrality mean for the Armenians? Will they be spared their OTL's fate or did that happen independently from the war? With no way for Greece to go through with their Megali idea what will be the fate of the Greeks in the Ottoman Empire?
You know with the odds being so close I'm pretty sure the Grand Fleet will remain very cautious until new ships are brought into service and worked up, of course having the Queen Elizabeth and numerous other ships not go to the Mediterranean for several months will improve the odds by a fair bit, plus the Mediterranean Fleet's battlecruisers can be more easily recalled to reinforce the Grand Fleet than in otl
We had a Marlborough and a Black Prince at the time, bit puzzled by the one completed in 1945, as far as I remember we've never had a HMS WaterlooOnly adds to the appeal...
No worse than Cressy, Aboukir or Ramilles, and not forgetting HMS Lord Nelson, Collingwood, St Vincent ... and the Fleet flagship Iron Duke.
To be fair, there was some evidence of tact. The next ship of the very best name wasn't completed until 1945.
According to wiki there have been 3 the last was a Battle class Destroyer that was laid down but cancelled in 1945.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Waterloo
Sounds right to me. As far as I know the Channel Fleet at the outbreak of war had two battle squadrons of pre-dreadnoughts at Portland and Devonport, all mobilised (for the review) and consisting of most of the pre-King Edward VII class ships. All were from the third fleet (i.e. 'old junk' to borrow a phrase from a later DNC), so their readiness for a fight on the 7th August is probably debatable.
However, many of the ships went on to give very respectable, if unglamourous service, either in the Med or bombarding the Belgian coast.